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Elderly parents

Siblings want to put mum in a home

286 replies

Florencenightingalewasfab · 01/02/2023 23:01

( I'll split this into two posts as it's quite long)Mum ( now in late 70's) sold her home and gave all the money to my sister for a 2 bed 'granny flat' ( to be built on the side of my sister's home. Sister took her money and built mum a ONE bedroom extension and also managed to gain a new bedroom into the bargain. So mum didn't get what she wanted and no one could come to stay in "her" flat, Sis used the 'extra' bedroom in her house - sorry - I digress. Mum dud this on the understanding that she wouldn't have to go into a ( old people's home ). Mum also gave full access to BIL and sis to her bank account

OP posts:
TheShellBeach · 02/02/2023 23:51

You are seriously underestimating the debt you owe your sister for caring for your mother for so long.

justasking111 · 03/02/2023 00:01

The siblings have seen the work put in by their sister and agree it's time mum went into a home. They're best placed to know how hard it is now. Not a sibling who lives 90 miles away and has no relationship with the rest of the family

MrsMikeDrop · 03/02/2023 00:47

TheShellBeach · 02/02/2023 23:51

You are seriously underestimating the debt you owe your sister for caring for your mother for so long.

This is true. I take back earlier when I said that the sister was sly, I hadn't factored in that she had already done 7 years care. I also agree with poster above, you haven't done anything and now are trying to interfere. You don't know what the day to day entails

BarmyArmy22 · 03/02/2023 10:05

There's a trend on MN for estranged adult children to show up when they think they're losing out financially

This👆

ChilliBandit · 03/02/2023 10:34

BarmyArmy22 · 03/02/2023 10:05

There's a trend on MN for estranged adult children to show up when they think they're losing out financially

This👆

Not just on MN, in real life too 😬

Iizzyb · 03/02/2023 10:45

Op on top of the great advice you've had could you get mum an Alexa so you can just "drop in" and talk to her in her flat whenever you want to? You could do it during the day when everyone's busy/at work?

Bellalalala · 03/02/2023 10:54

Op you may not mean to. But you come across as the family members who turn up, after not doing anything the criticise the care their elderly relative has. But doesn’t do anything to help. Just criticise.

You hint your mother could be quite toxic. The fact that she wanted a 2 bed place building, doesn’t mean it was possible. Since you seem to reluctant to actually have a conversation with your sister, I am guessing you don’t know the details.

Your sister and her husband, if they are so clued up to attempt to deprive your mother, will know that putting her in a home (if it’s at all possible) will, potentially, cause them a financial problem. But they still think it’s the best thing.

Since you haven’t been the one caring for your mum, you have no clue the impact she is having. or why they are doing things the way they are. It may come across as controlling, but likely they are just trying to do things in a way that causes less stress. I remember grandad, causing all sorts of problems when he had spoke to someone on the phone. Because he would out and out lie about the conversation. He would lie to other people. He once told neighbours he woke up to my cousin sneaking around his bedroom stealing from him. She wasn’t, she was at my house. So yes, we didn’t really want him talking to people without someone there. Because in this instance the neighbour called the police. Grandad was toxic. He loved causing issues. Between the family and others or within the family. He was always the same. He loved winding his eldest daughter up on Christmas Day until she would snap. Which is why we stopped spending Christmas as a family.

Looking after him was exhausting. It aged my mum terribly and she died less than 6 years after him.

You seem full of reasons why you couldn’t do anything. You didn’t see the plans, you don’t know the detail, you weren’t there for this happening or that happening. But you also seem to have a really solid opinion on what’s happening. Despite not actually being around for any of it.

Bellalalala · 03/02/2023 10:56

And your mum needs to understand she can not say ‘I don’t want to go in a home’ but also refuse all help in the house. She needs to compromise somewhere

GotabigD · 03/02/2023 11:14

We have a similar situation, without the inheritance mixing things up.
Mil moved next door to SIL. Sil has done most of the care and whilst it doesn't go into some of the heavy lifting personal care that some have to deal with, the burden has had serious consequences for SIL's mental health. SIL has demanded that mil goes into a home - mil doesn't want to, and doesn't want carers or cleaners either, like a lot of older people she wants her family to look after her. We live 3 hours away - it's a hard situation to be in too, mostly we didn't know the situation had got so bad - no one told us, Mil put on a good show so it wasn't evident from visits. She's still relatively independent and able to live alone so getting into a care home is not going to happen. When she's asked by the nurse if she needs carers she says no. And the only reason she can say no is because her family do it. MIL has been forced to accept carers now because her family can't continue to do it. She doesn't like it, she cries about it which is upsetting to see but she doesn't have a choice, her family have the right to a life too.

I can well imagine offering to care for your mother 7 years ago seemed like a good idea at the time but as your mother has got older her needs have increased and I think it's perfectly reasonable of your sister to say she can't cope anymore - she had no idea how hard it was going to be - she can't be held to looking after your Mum regardless of the weight of care needed. Maybe you should offer to have your mum stay with you for a while to give your sister some rest bite?

The relationship with your sister and the rest of your family has inevitably deteriorated - it's such a common thing to happen regardless of which side of the divide you sit on - the burden of old age parents sits heavily on everyone and the promise of inheritance or lack of it doesn't help, all too often a family falls apart rather than pulling together. I know so many families that have been torn apart over this burden and the elderly parents, who have no plan for their own care and are well-practised in the art of being difficult and saying no to help, do not improve the situation. One of my friends cared for her Mum in her own house for 10 years - when her mum finally died in her mid 90s her overwhelming feeling was relief - she loved her mum dearly but she was completely exhausted and now suffers from terrible guilt over her feelings.

I think you have no idea what your sister is going through - you only see her with dollar signs for eyes - life is a lot more complicated than that.

Toomuchinfor · 03/02/2023 12:24

Bellalalala · 03/02/2023 10:56

And your mum needs to understand she can not say ‘I don’t want to go in a home’ but also refuse all help in the house. She needs to compromise somewhere

This lack of insight or ability to respond appropriately to her own care needs is lacking capacity, basically. The alternative is endless ambulances being called, beds used for unnecessary injuries and UTIs etc, and carers eventually refusing to come anyway.

If you're elderly and need help, you're not being a grown up about your own life or the needs of our society if you think you can do as you like and call an ambulance every time you can't get up.

EezyOozy · 03/02/2023 12:31

I think it was very foolish of your mother and sister to come to the arrangement that they did.

Obviously I has left a very messy situation to deal with now…

But I don’t think your sister is necessarily the bad guy. Your mom is refusing essential care and your sister cannot cope anymore, what other solution is there than residential care ?

your posts seem completely coloured by money/inheritance, rather than facing facts about the reality of your mothers care situation.

It’s a shame about the money, but it doesn’t sound like there is much can be done about it now. I think you need to let go.

WhereIsMumHiding3 · 10/02/2023 09:39

OP if Mum moved into Dsis's home 7 years ago that's a long time being cared for and a lot can and does change in that time. She's refusing to accept help and expecting Dsis to care for her more than was originally agreed

It depends on what legal documents DM signed when she gave her DD and your BIL the money for extension on their house - ie. I suspect she did this without going on the property deeds. They can decline to have her back if so. It would be a lodging situation with resident LL

Some people make very unwise decisions about doing this and don't have expectations that match their family's or staying there forever even if they develop very high care needs that require a care home

With capacity she can decline to go into a care home but she can't force her DD to continue to house her if she has no legal part ownership of their property. The money before would likely be seen as a gift until they signed documents otherwise

She can apply for supported sheltered housing extra care scheme but if her needs are at residential level she won't be offered a place so residential may be her only alternative

WhereIsMumHiding3 · 10/02/2023 09:40

saraclara · 01/02/2023 23:40

If your mum moved in with sis seven years ago, and is as difficult as she sounds, though sis had been crafty, she's put in the time. It's not like it's been seven months. And during that time you've been able to live your life free of responsibility for your mum.

She won't accept carers, an alarm or a nebulizer. That's a nightmare for the person responsible for her, to be fair.

Maybe you can convince her to accept all those things so she can stay in the granny flat (and annoy your sister for longer).

This ^^

You couldn't argue deprivation of asserts over someone that lived in a granny annex for 7 years

MereDintofPandiculation · 10/02/2023 09:45

You couldn't argue deprivation of asserts over someone that lived in a granny annex for 7 years Is that opinion or based on actual cases?

Pencase · 10/02/2023 10:46

WhereIsMumHiding3 · 10/02/2023 09:40

This ^^

You couldn't argue deprivation of asserts over someone that lived in a granny annex for 7 years

I thought they removed the 7 year rule for deprivation of assets

Tirednest · 10/02/2023 10:48

Toddlerteaplease · 01/02/2023 23:16

It does sound really unfair on the face of it. But did your sister under estimate the stain of caring for your mum? Or has seen that it's going to get more difficult in the future, and feels she can't do it.

This. Hopefully you are going in daily to help your mum and sister.

florentina1 · 10/02/2023 11:12

The most important thing here is, no matter how much your siblings want to put you mum in a home, they cannot. Social services will not even visit unless your mum consents.

Contact AGE UK for advice about care home fees. Your sister is mistaken if she thinks she won’t have to pay. Ask for a leaflet from AGEUK on depravation of assets. This charity is wonderful.

WhereIsMumHiding3 · 10/02/2023 11:36

@Pencase
I thought they removed the 7 year rule for deprivation of assets

You're talking cross purposes

It's nothing to do with an exact number of years, it's the intention at the time, timescale and what could reasonably have been anticipated about her needs.

Deprivation of assets is when you give away your assets to avoid paying for care you could reasonably have anticipated you'd need. And how that money was given away.

So paying for granny annexe in a relatives house to be built so you could live in it for a long while- if all your money went in that - is unlikely to be a misuse of your your funds -as seven years of living there is a long time and her needs have only just increased. It depends on the circumstances as there are variables.

For eg Only living there 3 months before needing residential care, might be seen as having deprived yourself of a lot of money disproportionately.
Gifting large amounts of money to rebuild the house not for your benefit if you reasonably could predict you would need that money for your level of needs at the time might be considered a deprivation of assets

WhereIsMumHiding3 · 10/02/2023 11:38

MereDintofPandiculation · 10/02/2023 09:45

You couldn't argue deprivation of asserts over someone that lived in a granny annex for 7 years Is that opinion or based on actual cases?

Case work

WhereIsMumHiding3 · 10/02/2023 11:46

@MereDintofPandiculation

As I said it depends on circumstances , intention to give away money, proportionality (amount gifted compared to costs of building granny annexe) and what could reasonably have been anticipated on her needs for care at that time.

But if she paid say £30-60k for example for a granny annexe to be built and then lived in it for 7 years, with support of her family living there, that might or be seen as unreasonable nor a bad return. If she gifted £200k then that may raise questions about intention. These are complicated questions.

WhereIsMumHiding3 · 10/02/2023 11:49

That might not* be seen as unreasonable, I meant

greyfox82 · 10/02/2023 11:49

Your sister is an arsehole and needs to be told what a horrendous human she is.

SheilaFentiman · 10/02/2023 11:51

greyfox82 · 10/02/2023 11:49

Your sister is an arsehole and needs to be told what a horrendous human she is.

For taking care of her elderly mother for 7 years?

Tirednest · 10/02/2023 11:52

greyfox82 · 10/02/2023 11:49

Your sister is an arsehole and needs to be told what a horrendous human she is.

How horrible.

Her sister has looked after her mum for 7 years. Your mum made the mistake of giving it all to your dsis, she should have made some financial provisions for you. I expect they thought it was a great idea at the time.

If your mum had had to goninto a home 7 years ago you'd have lost all the house money anyway.

greyfox82 · 10/02/2023 11:55

@Tirednest I'm not being horrible. From what the OP said her mother gave the sister all the money from the sale of her flat to build a granny flat, not extra rooms in the house. If the sister didn't want to 'look after' her she shouldn't have taken the money and used it for her house. She should also have thought about what would happen to her mother if she needed to go into a home. To put her in a state funded home when her mother has essentially paid for her to improve her property is disgusting. If the OP had said that her sister was going to put some money towards her care then I might feel differently.