How much influence to you really think you have over your DC's future?

[faraday]

Had an interesting w/e with an old, pre- children friend. We get on like a house on fire except for the issue of education.

I genuinely feel you'd be hard pressed to meet someone who feels she has her hand so totally on the rudder of her DSs future! They are Y4 and 6.

Her DSs are both being privately prepped. After almost 4 years for her DS1, I SO can't see what she's buying that MY DS1, 11 months younger doesn't get (state, but perhaps in a -ahem- 'nicer' area?). BUT I am almost shocked at the zeal of her belief that she can mould and shape her DSs future through their barely affordable education... (about to be 13K pa for DS1 as he enters Y7!!).

Now, my cards on the table: I cannot deny that it irks me that her ability to afford the 11K pa fees for her 2 x DSs has been 'won' on the back of one of our erstwhile 'leading banks' bonus scheme (ie the small classes, the spoon feeding, the individual attention). And it IS true that that 'bonus' largesse is in seriously short supply right now- to the extent of possibly (whisper) redundancy. She readily 'recognises' her 'cosseted' DSs inability to function outside the private sector (increasingly true as they get older) which is why they DH and her, like many, will move heaven and earth to keep them there- though I felt the idea that the school's 'charity status' will fund the next 5 years of DS1's ed and 7 years of DS2's was perhaps a little optimistic, SHOULD DH lose his job...

BUT the thing is, my friend- and she is, before I get the barbed 'How dare' you call her a friend yet not support every outer- edged fantasy she embarks on?- BUT she readily also says she feels her mother 'failed' her for not 'pushing' her at school thus she feels she was destined for far greater things in life... but thing is, she's now 40- and has done nothing (that SHE'D count as achievements as there isn't always a certificate attached!) SINCE. She regards her career (same as mine) as a little job she pootles at whilst her DH does the REAL work (ie earns the big money).

She admitted to me this w/e that she is 'ludicrously ambitious' for her DSs...

DOES 13K a year guarantee that?? The boys meeting her expectations? IS that reasonable? Or am I deluded?

My feeling is that her DSs aren't being 'educated', they're being 'trained'- for 'well paid/non-minion' jobs. I kind of like the idea that I DON'T have absolute mastery over what my DSs are doing in school, who they associate with, what ideas are being introduced- and that includes ideas I'm not 100% happy with!

SHOULD I or even COULD I have any more influence over DSs who are just beginning to flex the wings of puberty? Who's under an illusion? My friend for feeling she's buying control or me with my laissez faire?!

Some interesting stuff on this on www.tom-brown.com on the kind of advantage private schools can give - many schools will not let a child 'slip through the net'. They'll try to find what the child is good at and develop that. I don't see this as 'moulding' the child's personality, rather the school moulding to what the child excels at...

Bags - one poster ceratinly won't make us indie parents think our decision is pointless any more than the seemingly endless barrage of anacdotes aboyt indie kids failing in life.
I know the choice I've made for children is the right one. And yes, I know how very, very, lucky I am to be able to make it. I remind myself of that every day ( and my children fairly regularly).
As you say, the x rated one has her views. No-0ne has to agree with them. I just wish in response to her people wouldn't say vile things about children they've never met.

You are right of course that it certainly doesn't buy intelligence. I don't think anyone thinks that.
I do question however how much sheer brain power one needs in many jobs.
Obviously there will be the people we rely on to change the world but for most lawyers, doctors,MPs, campaigners, architects, teachers etc well it's not rocket science is it?
Ans as for the writers, artists, poets of this world - well that's another skill entirely.

I like that phrase... I can be the X-rated one.

Someone said I'd said I wanted my children educated with other clever children. That's it. There aer large numbers of private schools which are comprehensive, take all comers really as long as they pay or where every one is thick or cover but with dyslexia or it's a specialist music school etc In other words there is great variety but I wanted biggish schools int he top 20 - 30 in the country in terms of exam results which were day single sexed and with a very broad range of hobbies so the child whatever it's talents can find things it is good at.

Am I saying there is no choice? Not at all. It's interesting comparing my siblings who like me onyl went to private schools. They had their children much further after I did. They have all ended up choosing to pay fees for good schools in other parts of the country. I don't think they earn that much really although obviously it's going to be over £50k and I don't think any of the three of us has picked work for the pay. We all chose career specific degrees and went off at 17 or 18 to do them and very much enjoyed our work. The private education gave us more not less choice.

But you still ended up in a position where you could pay for the next generation to be educated, don't you, O x-rated one?

As a product of selective, single-sex schooling which does mould what a child is good at (Habs, actually) and parents who encouraged me to do a subject I found interesting at a Russell Group uni I now have no clue how all that is going to help me privately educate my children but I do know that I'm free to do what I want to, not what my school wanted (Law at Cambridge...), not what my parents expected (Civil Servant...) and not what my department told me I should (lost somewhere in the wilds of academia....). I am immensely grateful for the opportunities I had, but I'm also grateful that my parents didn't place a lot of pressure on me to do what other people wanted. I may yet decide to go and do law at Cambridge, become a Civil Servant or go into academia. I sincerely doubt I will choose to but it's nice to know I have or had those options.

If my own children can have those chances then that's brilliant, but I don't think it makes a bit of difference in the end how they get them. Belief in a child and parental dedication to a child count for a hell of a lot more than whether you pay fees for schooling or not and are far more beneficial than deciding your bump is going to become a doctor before it's even conceived and planning everyone's lives accordingly

Good post frannikin

But i have never once here or elsewhere said I wanted the children to follow a certain path. My sister was in a cult for a while. My 5 children differ hugely and I'd be surprised if they all followed similar career paths and don't want that but I don't want them at univesrity stage to make career choices they later regret so I want them to make informed decisions and have the exam results and chances as well as the personal skills and internal emotional intelligence to lead happy lives.

The poster above who went to Habs, that would have given you good choices. If you end up in low paid work you won't be able to buy your children a similar education but that's your choice. Some parents choose always to be on the dole so they can be with childre 24/7 or live on communes etc. I am glad we live in a country where parents can make those choices but to an extent they are selfish choices - every one who choose to earn very little is to an extent damaging their child's future potential as income is one of the key determinants in th eUK as to how children turn out.

One of the key elements Xenia. And I think every poster on MN takes education seriously - I mean, I've never heard anyone say, 'Actually I couldn't give a shit about where my kid goes to school, in fact let's find the crappiest school around, and of course I'll never go to a parents evening, or read my kids' reports or encourage them to do their homework!!'

People do care, and I certainly looked around carefully at a range of schools and thought about what would suit each of my children (as well as talking to them about it - it's their life!). And if I had a child with a particular need or difficulty, or maybe even one who I wasn't confident would be top set, then maybe I would make different choices.

But at the end of the day, there are so many variables in how a child will 'turn out' that to make such an issue out of private education, when at the end of the day it's something only 7% of children experience, is rather bizarre! And looking at a lot of people who have 'benefited' from a private education... hmmm I know quite a few who aren't necessarily happy, or fulfilled.

Probably the best bet if you want your children to turn into well balanced adults is to pick a good partner who you will enjoy a happy and stable relationship with. Throw in plenty of interesting experiences - go to concerts as a family, travel to interesting places, cook meals together, discuss books, films and what's on the news - and there's a far greater likelihood your children will turn out well than just by writing a cheque for them to go to school.

I would personally hate to live on a commune but those who do are probably more eco friendly than those of us who have "normal" lives, and thus you can not call it an entirely selfish choice.

Some people do not earn that much but donate money to charities who fund education for African children. Again I would not describe these people as selfish.

Whilst it is good to have some money being hugely wealthy does not always help ones children. They may feel less motivated to make their way in the world if they know mummy and daddy can always help them out financially.

Often the most succesful entrepreneurs are self made. They come from humble backgrounds and have huge drive to set up a successful business and do better than their parents did in career terms.

It is the DCs of the hugely wealthy who seem to struggle in life, they don't have anything to strive for-it is all handed on a plate. To go back to the OP' friend, she blames her parents because they didn't push her enough, she doesn't seem to have worked out that she should blame herself for not having pushed herself. She will now do the opposite and her DCs will most likely blame her for pushing them too hard!
Good posts from frannikin, violet and happywomble-I agree with you all.

"It is the DCs of the hugely wealthy who seem to struggle in life, they don't have anything to strive for-it is all handed on a plate. " erm... what evidence to you have for this??

and

"Often the most succesful entrepreneurs are self made"

i think you will find that we hear about the entrepeneurs that are self made more than those who arent because they simply have more kerbside appeal.. eg rags to riches.

Sadly that is true ickle - many of the people who had advantaged backgrounds have gone on to make shed loads of cash.
It's a nice thought that that the disadvantaged are just waiting in the wings to shine but the statistics show that social mobility in the UK is shite.

Guess if one of your life ambitions is to make a shed load of cash it matters... personally I'm happy having a good and interesting career and enough money to live comfortably and have choices available to me. Can't be bothered with making shed loads though.

If having choices includes the choice to send your child(ren) to private education, should they need it, then that considerably ups the ante in terms of what types of career could support that monetarily. That is what Xenia is saying, I believe.

I'm hoping my DCs will be as clever and talented as me and get a scholarship if I decided to go private! I wonder why my Mum didn't get one for me?
I guess she knew I'd turn out all right in the end no matter what she did.

Well, that is fairly obvious that sending one's child to a private school ups the ante in terms of career and monetary reward.

However, NOT sending your child to a private school doesn't necessarily mean they will be a dribbling, moronic, grunting half wit.

Bags, some chip you have on your shoulder as far as your second sentence goes. Some children may need the smaller classes, more personal attention, pastoral support or on-site sports facilities that private schools offer in order to thrive, if their local school does not offer that. How nice to have the choice to do that by sheer dint of earning enough.

I do not have a chip on my shoulder!

I do not disapprove of people sending their child to a private school. It is their choice. It is not mine. I have chosen not to. I could afford to if I wanted to. I agree it gives them an advantage. I am merely pointing out that NOT sending one's child to a private school isn't going to ruin their lives it is not doing them a disservice by not doing so.

It does depend on the quality of the state school and the personal qualities and needs of the individual child. You never know what you get, hence better to hedge bets in a high paying job.

Probably the optimum position to be in is to be a successful product of state education yourself, earning enough to have the choice to send your own kids private but not having the baggage of feeling you have to send them!!

I agree that it totally depends on the quality of education on offer. I know I'm potentially damaging my children's future by not currently being in a position to pay private school fees. I also believe that if my children are clever enough to 'need' selective single sex education then they'll get a scholarship like I did. However I should point out that I'm 22, I don't yet HAVE children and my DP is in a very fortunate position regarding school-fee paying in the possible future so this is all very academic. And once I've done my PGCE I'll be well up on primary homework and I could homeschool them should we happen to get sent to French Guiana - best of both worlds, no?

Xenia - the following a certain path wasn't directed at you, it was to the OP (well, her friend) and the debate about how much parents/schools can influence a child's future. I'm coming firmly down on the side that you CAN, it's possible, but it's damanging. FWIW I think you've got it right by giving your DCs opportunities but not pushing them into anything. (You're not really my mother, are you?)

I had a baby at 22 and she's 24 now. I was paying nursery school fees when she was 3 or rather her father and I who when I was 25 earned fairly similar amounts - I was probably only onabout £10k more than him when I was 25.

What is bad is constantly saying to a child we scrimp and save so you must do X hours homework a night, be grateful etc. It'snot their choice to go those schools so the parent shouldn't use that as a putting pressure on them

I wholeheartedly agree with you for once Xenia. It is utterly unfair to make the DC feel grateful, or that they have to work hard to get good results because they 'owe' you, If you choose to pay for private education -you did it because it was what you wanted. You have to accept that the DC may waste the chance and opportunities.

Some parents, perhaps first time private school parents, can be a bit like that, seeing it as buying A level grades rather than its more being about getting a good education.

Anyway early on the thread Branson and someone else were mentioned both of whom left school not having worked much and bad exam results but the education in their private schools came through in a sense and they did fine later.

I mentioned Branson and Churchill and we will never know if they would have been the same at a state school. However I think you probably have a point there-public schools do seem to give a great selfconfidence and self belief. My father's best friend was a man with very few qualifications but his manner and self confidence got him far-and he got it from his private school.