How much influence to you really think you have over your DC's future?

[faraday]

Had an interesting w/e with an old, pre- children friend. We get on like a house on fire except for the issue of education.

I genuinely feel you'd be hard pressed to meet someone who feels she has her hand so totally on the rudder of her DSs future! They are Y4 and 6.

Her DSs are both being privately prepped. After almost 4 years for her DS1, I SO can't see what she's buying that MY DS1, 11 months younger doesn't get (state, but perhaps in a -ahem- 'nicer' area?). BUT I am almost shocked at the zeal of her belief that she can mould and shape her DSs future through their barely affordable education... (about to be 13K pa for DS1 as he enters Y7!!).

Now, my cards on the table: I cannot deny that it irks me that her ability to afford the 11K pa fees for her 2 x DSs has been 'won' on the back of one of our erstwhile 'leading banks' bonus scheme (ie the small classes, the spoon feeding, the individual attention). And it IS true that that 'bonus' largesse is in seriously short supply right now- to the extent of possibly (whisper) redundancy. She readily 'recognises' her 'cosseted' DSs inability to function outside the private sector (increasingly true as they get older) which is why they DH and her, like many, will move heaven and earth to keep them there- though I felt the idea that the school's 'charity status' will fund the next 5 years of DS1's ed and 7 years of DS2's was perhaps a little optimistic, SHOULD DH lose his job...

BUT the thing is, my friend- and she is, before I get the barbed 'How dare' you call her a friend yet not support every outer- edged fantasy she embarks on?- BUT she readily also says she feels her mother 'failed' her for not 'pushing' her at school thus she feels she was destined for far greater things in life... but thing is, she's now 40- and has done nothing (that SHE'D count as achievements as there isn't always a certificate attached!) SINCE. She regards her career (same as mine) as a little job she pootles at whilst her DH does the REAL work (ie earns the big money).

She admitted to me this w/e that she is 'ludicrously ambitious' for her DSs...

DOES 13K a year guarantee that?? The boys meeting her expectations? IS that reasonable? Or am I deluded?

My feeling is that her DSs aren't being 'educated', they're being 'trained'- for 'well paid/non-minion' jobs. I kind of like the idea that I DON'T have absolute mastery over what my DSs are doing in school, who they associate with, what ideas are being introduced- and that includes ideas I'm not 100% happy with!

SHOULD I or even COULD I have any more influence over DSs who are just beginning to flex the wings of puberty? Who's under an illusion? My friend for feeling she's buying control or me with my laissez faire?!

Of course she hasn't got complete mastery faraday.
I have seen this attitude before, and usually from parents with dc in the private sector.
I think it's because they pay enormous amounts of money for this education, they are under the illusion they are in total and complete control of what will happen now and in future years.
That's bollux of course, you can only offer your children the best educational building blocks, be that private or state, and hope they carry on building. They might not, but there's nothing you can do about it once they hit adulthood
or...
she could become one of those parents, who frequently remind their child of the sacrifices they made to provide their education and so they better deliver something with a bloody big bonus.
It's a shame she considers herself such a failure, that she has to place such high expectations on her children. Maybe you should encourage her to work on her own career prospects.

I don't think it is anything to do with which school you send them to, I think that it is rather sad that she feels she hasn't done much with her life and then blames her parents for not pushing her. She is an adult, with a DH who can afford to have a very good standard of living, whatever has stopped her doing something later in life?

Adults blaming their parents because they didn't do well at school is a complete cop out of responsibility. Lots of people waste their school years but if they have drive they can do something about it later.
She is then pushing her DCs so that they fulfill her ambitions for her-always a mistake IMO.

I know many a DC who has had a lot spent on their education and is not doing much with it. I bumped into someone the other day that I hadn't see for years. Her DC was at a top public school and left at 16, he had had enough. He was doing quite well but only because he got employment through family connections. It wasn't what his high achieving parents had in mind.

I think that you have to encourage your DCs, set a good example yourself and push for the best for them but you have to accept that they may not fit in with your ideas and are not blank sheets to be 'moulded'.

An excellent post Tavvy.

I do think you're arguing separate things here, though.

On the one hand, you're talking about education, specifically private v. state education. And on the other, you're talking about parental ambition and how much that can/should mould a child.

Of course parents think that they can, to some level, shape a child's destiny. And we want to; we think/hope our individual input will shape them in some way.

If we didn't think that, we would simply let them run wild, perhaps giving them a key to the house and directions to the fridge (though that, too, might be optional).

Or we'd hand children over to the state and they would be brought up communally. As Plato suggested.

But we don't do that, as a rule. And people who do provoke a bit of a raised eyebrow.

So are you just saying, more simply, you think she is overbearing as regards her ambitions for her kids and you do not agree with those ambitions?

You're allowed not to agree. It would be dull if we all shared the same ambitions.

faraday, what makes you think that your 'friend''s dcs are being spoonfed beyond their ability? Perhaps they are not lap dogs, but just lapping up the increased educational opportunities that a private schooling offers, as any bright young child would.

Much as you clearly feel judged and are bitter about your friend's attitude, why do you belittle her dcs?

What relevance is it that your friend works at what I can assume is a bailed out bank? She is in the same career as you, it could easily have been you as well. Is she Fred the Shred - perhaps not otherwise you would not be describing her children's education as 'barely affordable' - but it sounds as if you think she were.

Just because you think you somehow occupy some moral high ground because you do not perceive yourself as buying or controlling your dcs' destiny does not mean that either you or your friend will escape the inexorable truth - that some times it matters what you put into your children's education and some times it does not .

Hear hear Tavvy - excellent post.

To the OP - I think some of the other posters have been a little harsh and misinterpreted you - my reading of this is that you DON'T want a private/state debate - you are raising a genuine question about raising children how far we influence them.

A couple of points (and I speak as a parent with children in both state and private so no particular axe to grind here): it probably actually makes good sense to move to a good state 6th form. Applying to University from a fee paying school is not necessarily the optimum position to be in!!

It's interesting that your friend sees herself as having 'failed' and not done anything particularly successful with her own life. I've come across quite a few mothers like this in the private sector, and I too find it odd. Why have expectations of your own children to achieve things that you haven't achieved yourself? Blaming your parents IS a cop out. As piscesmoon says, people can return to education and make their opportunities in other ways. My own school was a very ordinary comp - nothing special. I had friends there who moaned and complained that they could have achieved more in a 'better' school, but equally there were many of us who got on with it and did well.

And I also agree with the OP that paying the school fees from some dubious bonus is not particularly admirable, but it sounds like the husband's job disappear anyway and the wife can't earn enough to keep her child in this cossetted life style, so it could all go tits up for them anyway.

I blame my parents - a dozen moves - 5 different schools

Just because I made something of my life doesn't exonerate them from their responsibility

Unless they moved you for no good reason Laurie it was hardly their fault.
I had been to 3 schools by the time I was 6yrs old! Of course my parents didn't choose it but my father had to move with his job-he had no option. I don't suppose it did me a lot of good but I think it was preferable to keeping me at my first school and being out of work!!

'Children are children and in my (very humble) opinion need to be allowed to develop their own identity, not have one created for them.'

That sentence of Tavvys says it all for me. It is actually cruel to set your heart on producing a doctor if they want to be a landscape gardener. Encourage and support-don't try and mould. If you want a doctor in the family-go and do it yourself!

It was definitely their responsibility/fault.

I am only responding to the posts about 'blaming parents being a cop out'. We are very responsible for the way we nurture our children in every area.

Obviously i agree with not moulding them to turn out be 'what you always wanted to be' - that is emotional abuse imo.

Here in Scotland there has never been the same debate over private/state education. The vast majority of children go to the local state school, especially in more rural areas. So I find all the debate on here quite fascinating but strangely alien particularly the idea that everyone would chose private if they could afford it. As an outsider, I have been doing some sums and realised that 12 years of schooling at average of say £12,000 a year is £144,000. I don't suppose it stops there because there will be additional expense for uniform, sports equipment, school trips, clubs, etc. Maybe £150,000 then. If invested sensibly easily quarter of a million by the time the child is 18. Now would that not give them a good start in life? Set them up in business? Open a few doors? Or do you believe that the potential financial benefits of a private education would make £250,000 small beer?

Children will obviously be helped by a good education whether in a good state school or good private school.

However I think parents providing a happy stable homelife after school and at weekends is equally important.

I went to a good private school but was miserable at home in my late teens and I do think this had an impact on my confidence and academic achievement.

I think if OPs friend is too ambitious for her children it may backfire. If they feel too pushed and there is too much expectation it may lead to disappointment or they may rebel. I think one needs to be supportive and encouraging above all.

I think OP should not worry about what type of schools her friends choose for their DCs. Just focus on your DCs..making sure they are getting a reasonably good state education. If they are well motivated and happy they will do well whatever school they go to.

granny, do you have the same issues with sink schools in Scotland?

Blueshoes - no I do not think we do to the same extent. When ALL the children in a local area go to the same school the average ability + interest + committment remains higher than when the children of professional parents are being hived off to the private sector. Also when you have more parents who are concerned that their children get a good education in the state sector there is more pressure put on the local authorities to maintain high standards in the schools. I think that in Scotland a larger percentage of local taxes goes to education than in England + Wales and people are accepting of that because it is their own children/granchildren who are benefitting. It must be galling to pay for education through local taxation with no rebate when you decide to have your own children educated privately.

faraday you are clearly jelous and it will do neither you nor your children any favours.

I think that parents do make a difference to a child's future, but its time spent with a child rather than money. Children can do very well in sink schools if they are brought up with the right attitude and a good work ethic. Spending money on private school or moving to an expensive area to cherry pick state schools do not comprise for this.

Unless your parents were truely abusive, I do not think an adult can blame their parents for educational failure. Especially when there are chances like access courses for later developers.

'IS there any point in paying to push, push, push an 'Whatevah' child into higher grades'

Mine are state edded and no private would touch them the way they perform

But I have frinds who come from a middling private and the difference between them and I 9I choose i becauseI have a better degree so assume comparable intelligence) is confidence and a belief that they are anyones equal

I could understand why someone would want that for their child i think

Trying to get away from the private v state issue. I think when it comes down to it you do your best as a parent but in the end there is no guarantee that your children will follow the course you have mapped out for them ...

I can see what the OP means. I don't think it is jealousy.

I think you can influence your children to a certain extent, just by the way you behave and your morals/opinions/values etc. I try to give a balanced opinion on many things but sometimes it is difficult. Teens will tend to argue against their parents opinions as a matter of principle at some stage whether they secretly agree with you or not.

Paying for education is going to give them an 'advantage', there is no doubt about that. Whether it is morally right to use bonus payments accrued through a 'leading bank's' failure is another argument. I personally don't agree that 'buying' an education is particularly the right thing to do, but if the OP's friend wants to virtually guarantee a string of As at GCSE then she is going the right way about it. However, she can't guarantee that her DCs with either thank her or be grateful for it. I suppose it all depends on what values she has, whether academic excellence is the be all and end all of her children's lives.

As someone else said, if the money runs out, it could all go belly up and then if she has drummed into her DCs that a private education is paramount to their success in life, then it's all going to be a bit difficult.

You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make it drink.

There is nothing that anyone can do to guarentee a string of As at GCSE or A-level.

There is always someone who is richer than you and someone who is poorer than you. Life is not fair and most people agree it would be undesirable to live in a communist state. Also people spend their money in different ways.

Our family could afford private education for one child, if we chose not to own a car, worked all the hours Gawd sends and never went on holiday and had no hobbies. However I doult that would be a productive use of our money.

One of the things that came as a surprise when I had children was how they are not amorphous blobs that need to be shaped and moulded but come with their own personalities, talents, foibles. This was a releif as I was terrified at the thought of having to teach them everything! And it is fascinating to see how they develop independently and choose their own interests. I do not believe I have much influence over them, but try to behave as a good role model. As regards education, I am pleased that they are eager to learn, and so we have chosen schools for them which we think will help them to learn and grow and develop. One of them is in a indepemdent school that definitley does not spoonfeed- quite the reverse - there are high expectations of the pupils to think for themselves, take responsibility for their learning and a deadline is a deadline - no endless extensions of GSCE coursework as in some maintained schools (another thread!).
So all schools are different - maybe the OPs friend's chilren are a spoonfeeding independent - or is it just the OP's assumption?

I think I can see where you are coming from. I have a friend with a daughter who is currently state educated it is a possibility that she may move into the private sector at some point and my friends sole aim in life is to ensure that her daughter gets into Oxbridge and has a wonderful career she has ambitions of her becoming a major player in politics or CEO of a major company. I think that level of expectation is unhealthy for both mother and daughter.

On the other hand I would weep if ds received the same level of education and careers advice that I received. I am happy for ds to do whatever he wants, he may decide to live on an ashram in India or become a Corporate Lawyer, who knows? I feel it is my job to ensure that he knows where to go to get appropriate advice and to provide encouragement.

I'm with you. You can try to influence but in reality all you can do is provide the best you can, offer support, encouragement, and wait and see.

My feelings are if I use the money I have sensibly and put the children in the right environment, be that prep school, grammar school, sixth form college and University then I have done all I can.

I have a very bright child and two above average but never going to light the world with their academic ability children.
I cannot control what they will do with their lives/talents but I can give them choices which were never available to me and that's what I plan to do.
That's what private education buys, opportunity.

I also agree with the confidence aspect, I was very anti private school for a while because my ex husband and his siblings were basically wankers and I thought that was to do with their education. It was to do with the snobbery of their parents, but their education put them into a position where they felt entitled to jobs I would never have dreamt of applying for, one has a career as a TV writer, without parental support for many years nobody could achieve that (he literally worked for free for 10 years until discovered), from a state school I don't believe many would have that self belief.

An anecdote here that a friend told me recently.... she teaches in a private school and one bright girl in last year's 6th form had a very pushy mother. The girl was a hard worker, a lovely girl, and ended up with ABB at A level and went to a good University to read a traditional academic subject. And the mother was disappointed and expressed disappointment to her daughter and to the school, that she hadn't got into Oxbridge!! I found this shocking. And perhaps the most shocking thing of all is that the mother doesn't even work - so clearly she is transferring aspirations onto her child that she couldn't/wouldn't achieve herself.

This happened to be in a private school, but it could happen anywhere, but it goes to show how horribly dysfunctional it is when parents try to dictate their children's lives, and can't accept them as the unique individual they are.

violethill - what point are you making by saying the mother doesn't even work. I'm sure most mothers want their children to do well in their eduation whatever they themselves are doing.