How much influence to you really think you have over your DC's future?

[faraday]

Had an interesting w/e with an old, pre- children friend. We get on like a house on fire except for the issue of education.

I genuinely feel you'd be hard pressed to meet someone who feels she has her hand so totally on the rudder of her DSs future! They are Y4 and 6.

Her DSs are both being privately prepped. After almost 4 years for her DS1, I SO can't see what she's buying that MY DS1, 11 months younger doesn't get (state, but perhaps in a -ahem- 'nicer' area?). BUT I am almost shocked at the zeal of her belief that she can mould and shape her DSs future through their barely affordable education... (about to be 13K pa for DS1 as he enters Y7!!).

Now, my cards on the table: I cannot deny that it irks me that her ability to afford the 11K pa fees for her 2 x DSs has been 'won' on the back of one of our erstwhile 'leading banks' bonus scheme (ie the small classes, the spoon feeding, the individual attention). And it IS true that that 'bonus' largesse is in seriously short supply right now- to the extent of possibly (whisper) redundancy. She readily 'recognises' her 'cosseted' DSs inability to function outside the private sector (increasingly true as they get older) which is why they DH and her, like many, will move heaven and earth to keep them there- though I felt the idea that the school's 'charity status' will fund the next 5 years of DS1's ed and 7 years of DS2's was perhaps a little optimistic, SHOULD DH lose his job...

BUT the thing is, my friend- and she is, before I get the barbed 'How dare' you call her a friend yet not support every outer- edged fantasy she embarks on?- BUT she readily also says she feels her mother 'failed' her for not 'pushing' her at school thus she feels she was destined for far greater things in life... but thing is, she's now 40- and has done nothing (that SHE'D count as achievements as there isn't always a certificate attached!) SINCE. She regards her career (same as mine) as a little job she pootles at whilst her DH does the REAL work (ie earns the big money).

She admitted to me this w/e that she is 'ludicrously ambitious' for her DSs...

DOES 13K a year guarantee that?? The boys meeting her expectations? IS that reasonable? Or am I deluded?

My feeling is that her DSs aren't being 'educated', they're being 'trained'- for 'well paid/non-minion' jobs. I kind of like the idea that I DON'T have absolute mastery over what my DSs are doing in school, who they associate with, what ideas are being introduced- and that includes ideas I'm not 100% happy with!

SHOULD I or even COULD I have any more influence over DSs who are just beginning to flex the wings of puberty? Who's under an illusion? My friend for feeling she's buying control or me with my laissez faire?!

tbh you sound very judgemental about her and her choices and how she earns her money/pays for education etc
I wonder if she is as judgemental as you?

I've just read my post and feel I've failed to make my point that well- which is IS there any point in paying to push, push, push an 'Whatevah' child into higher grades than they would otherwise have attained, left to no more that the amount of 'pushing' a reasonably committed comp would provide?

fwiw, my friend plans on withdrawing her DSs from the 13K pa school to go to a highly rated state 6th form college (to save money) come the day. Whilst I am no expert it strikes me that they money would have been better spent on private 6th form, not prep IF she is genuinely chasing the Oxbridge entry.

As a teacher if i could find a nice comp or if my DS would pass the 11plus i would send him there. We are going to go private as there are no nice comps around here and DS is shy and would be swallowed up in the large comps we have here. I don't think the massive amount of money (11K a year is massive for us!) is going to buy him a better future, the school we are looking at is a moderate indie school-not academically selective....

I feel that mother maybe in for a bit of a disappointment and is unrealistic regarding the future. I have witnessed countless of prep school pupils come to GS and go through the system to come out with adequate (not outstanding) A levels and go and do 'interesting' subjects at Uni (Uni of back of beyond)which may not carry a great deal of worth in the job market....money well spent....

OH YES, my friend is VERY judgemental! I am but nothing before her when it comes to Private Schooling! Oh yes, Rest assured.

We will be spending that money purely for him to have a secure and safe time at school and so that he can be happy during his education, with smallish class sizes and teachers who may poss have a little more time to offer him due to the smaller numbers - i don't expect him to give me an academic return for my money.

And sorry, but I feel I DO have a point re the source of the funding that buys her DSs the sort of hand feeding that allows such preciousness- a DH in a job with a bonus gained from risk taking that has cost many others their homes and their jobs- and possibly THEIR children's future. whilst it may be 'up to her how she spends her money' it transpires it wasn't HER money she was buying privilege with, was it??

I would have thought the same as you that it would pay more to be private in the later years BUT when I did my economics degree a long while ago when the Dearing report came out it was clear that the more you invest in children's education at a younger age the more they will attain in later life (measured in terms of income only!). That doesn't mean I agree with your friend. If she wants to spend a fortune for probably the same results as they'd have got in state school that's up to her. So long as she's not telling you you're wrong in your decision who cares?
Don't push your kids, let them push themselves.

If I had the money I would try to buy the best in education for my DDs.
The question is what is the best? I want my DDs to be the best versions of themselves they can but I don't want to force them to be people they are not. I think with a different education I might have gone further but maybe not, maybe I would still be more or less where I am now.

I think your friend may get a shock one day when one of her DC declares he wants to go to art college or drops out and travels the world.

You can give them the best but you can't force them to live out your dreams for them...

education system isn't fair. sucks doesn't it

Well, I do agree that its' better to spend the money at 6th form than at prep level. If you are looking at "opening doors" it really only take the last two year to be able to say, "Oh I went to so and so school."

I feel I do have a big influence on my children, and will push them towards jobs which earn (decent) money, which my parents didn't do.

green, yes, of COURSE I wish I could send my children to a school that hand-feeds and 'cossets' them- and allows them a shot at a future that their raw intellect and ambition alone may not if not guarantee them but certainly aid them along the way- who wouldn't? But I'm not sure a 'results guaranteed' private is the way to go!

It is this 'if you can afford it it's OK' attitude that GOT so many of us into this mess!

But this isn't about jealousy though I appreciate many, many MNetters will see it that way- it's about the belief that if you throw enough cash at it you can MAKE it all OK (ie YOUR way) with your DCs.

Surely every one who moves into a desirable catchment can be tarred with that brush? But I feel it's about degrees of control- or perhaps illusions of control. We all want our DCs to be happy- but I am alarmed at the ethos that dictates that academic achievement will buy that happiness- because someone feels they 'coulda done better' themselves!

Q from green:

'You are not this womans friend, you are very bitter about all this and need to get over it.'

Objection.

faraday I agree with you that we 'DON'T have absolute mastery over what my DSs are doing in school, who they associate with, what ideas are being introduced- and that includes ideas I'm not 100% happy with!' and I like that (I'll prob come back to eat my words when my dds will dcide to disagree with me or go with the 'wrong' crowds).

However without me going into the state/private debate (of which I don;t know much as not british) I believe that better education and better contacts give you more options in life thus offer more opportunities. For this I would send them to a better school, not because I believe I have more chances of them doing what I want iyswim.
I come from the 'good school' background, I accuse my parents at one point of not pushing me but truth is I had other ideas and she had her problems. Most of my peers with good schooling backgrounds have brilliant careers though in well paid professions. I don't. Some are happy with their choices some wish they were less sensible as feel stuck but enjoy the securuty and money. I'm very happy and I don't have all the answers. I wish for my kids they find what works for them. A good education won't cut you off from any job a lack of it would. maybe that's what your friend means.

PS, I guess it wasn;t clear: I am not that keen on private in general as I feel they are a bit 'segregated' for lack of a better word and I much prefer my dc to mix a bit (not talking about race) with verious layers of society. I am keen on a good education and it upsets me that here it is a private versus state.

There are no guarantees on anything in this world especially with children however much you invest.
Having worked with children for a long time now right across the board from deeply deprived to incredibly privileged I can honestly say children who are valued for who they are not what somebody wishes to make them be are the ones that do best in life.
I know some incredibly succesful (in terms of earning money) adults who really are the most unhappy, damaged people I know and also adults who will never be considered successful at anything who are the most lovely, happy, well balanced people around.
A childs success should never be at the expense of their health and that is what it often comes down to in the end.
Focus on what you think are the positives you provide in the way you choose to raise your children. Even if you can't afford the private school fees as long as you honestly believe your way is the best for your children then ignore your friends methods. It may pay off, it may not. There is always a hidsen cost as well.

You can't polish a turd - not even in the most expensive private school

Tavvy - i sooooo agree with you

'children who are valued for who they are not what somebody wishes to make them be are the ones that do best in life.'

tavvy you said in few words what sums up my parenting method. thanks will plagiarise if you don;t mind when someone asks.

Another private v state education thread eh?

faraday - ourlot has sort of answered your question re. money and education - she suggests the statistics say yes to a strong correlation between early monetary investment in children's education by parents and increased income at a far later date.

So what are you arguing? Something more nebulous?

I think a lot of people invest a lot of emotion into their children's schooling. For some, it's a chance to go back in time and put right perceived failings in their own encounters with education. With others, it's a desire to seize a little control, an oasis of safety, in a world that can't possibly care for you dear ones as much as you can.

Are you saying that paying for education, can't, in fact, build a path to future safety and comfort for said dear ones and that, by paying for education, parents can't, in fact, parlay with the Fates for an assured future for their children?

I think people know that. but ourlot's statistics suggest that it can certainly buy a paving stone or two on the way.

Plagiarise away.
Children are children and in my (very humble) opinion need to be allowed to develop their own identity, not have one created for them. Obviously there will always be very strong influences - how can there not be. Parents have always had hopes and dreams for their children and always will. Nothing wrong with that.
What worries me is when these hopes and dreams take over completely and a well meaning parent who thinks they are doing the very best for their child (plus plenty for the Christmas round robin) ends up inadvertantly seriously damaging the child.
I've seen it too many times at increasingly young ages.
Faraday - trust your own instincts with your DC's. Do not get caught up in this.