How much influence to you really think you have over your DC's future?

[faraday]

Had an interesting w/e with an old, pre- children friend. We get on like a house on fire except for the issue of education.

I genuinely feel you'd be hard pressed to meet someone who feels she has her hand so totally on the rudder of her DSs future! They are Y4 and 6.

Her DSs are both being privately prepped. After almost 4 years for her DS1, I SO can't see what she's buying that MY DS1, 11 months younger doesn't get (state, but perhaps in a -ahem- 'nicer' area?). BUT I am almost shocked at the zeal of her belief that she can mould and shape her DSs future through their barely affordable education... (about to be 13K pa for DS1 as he enters Y7!!).

Now, my cards on the table: I cannot deny that it irks me that her ability to afford the 11K pa fees for her 2 x DSs has been 'won' on the back of one of our erstwhile 'leading banks' bonus scheme (ie the small classes, the spoon feeding, the individual attention). And it IS true that that 'bonus' largesse is in seriously short supply right now- to the extent of possibly (whisper) redundancy. She readily 'recognises' her 'cosseted' DSs inability to function outside the private sector (increasingly true as they get older) which is why they DH and her, like many, will move heaven and earth to keep them there- though I felt the idea that the school's 'charity status' will fund the next 5 years of DS1's ed and 7 years of DS2's was perhaps a little optimistic, SHOULD DH lose his job...

BUT the thing is, my friend- and she is, before I get the barbed 'How dare' you call her a friend yet not support every outer- edged fantasy she embarks on?- BUT she readily also says she feels her mother 'failed' her for not 'pushing' her at school thus she feels she was destined for far greater things in life... but thing is, she's now 40- and has done nothing (that SHE'D count as achievements as there isn't always a certificate attached!) SINCE. She regards her career (same as mine) as a little job she pootles at whilst her DH does the REAL work (ie earns the big money).

She admitted to me this w/e that she is 'ludicrously ambitious' for her DSs...

DOES 13K a year guarantee that?? The boys meeting her expectations? IS that reasonable? Or am I deluded?

My feeling is that her DSs aren't being 'educated', they're being 'trained'- for 'well paid/non-minion' jobs. I kind of like the idea that I DON'T have absolute mastery over what my DSs are doing in school, who they associate with, what ideas are being introduced- and that includes ideas I'm not 100% happy with!

SHOULD I or even COULD I have any more influence over DSs who are just beginning to flex the wings of puberty? Who's under an illusion? My friend for feeling she's buying control or me with my laissez faire?!

I think this issue is as much about class as it is private/state.
The middle classes seem obsessed with schooling and achievement. I live in a very affluent part of the country and the parents at the GRAM schools and 'outstanding' state schools are every bit as pushy as the parents at my kids indie school.
And MN is full of posts wittering on about young people who are, frankly, old enough to make decisions for themselves.

violethill - I was in the daughter's position in your story. And I was desperately disappointed when I failed to get into Oxbridge. I got 3 very good As but I was gutted. Because there were expectations on me that I was never going to acheive because of the person I was at that age.

I can see Violethill's point entirely-if she had aspirations for Oxbridge she should have done it herself not expected her DD to do it for her!
I think it is very sad for a DC to have a mother who was a mediocre student herself, who messed around at school, and then decides that her DC is going to be an A student with nose to the grindstone the whole time. The odds are that the DC is a mediocre student, who would like to mess around.
In hindsight the mother can see where she went wrong and paying for education and encouraging her DC to make the best of it is what any parent might do. Deciding that her DD will go to Oxbridge so that she can have a graduation photo on the wall, write people ghastly round robin letters at Christmas and bask in reflected glory is not alright (unless this is the DD's ambition). Oxbridge isn't for everyone-maybe the DD wants to be a dress designer-join the navy straight from school-be a nanny or a plumber.
I know quite a few adults who were pressurised into the wrong career by parents-it is very sad.
As someone said earlier-you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. Let the DC develop their own personality and encourage and support. If you have Oxbridge aspirations get off your backside and do it yourself.

Obviously the Mum is wrong to push her DD so much. However I still don't see what the mothers career has to do with it.

If the DD were bright enough she would get into Oxbridge irrespective of her parents achievements.

Where does it say in violet hills post that the mother was a mediocre student herself...I don't think we have any information on the mothers educational background.

The other point is that a school isn't a sausage factory, they are dealing with individuals. Paying out vast amounts of money does not guarantee high grades.
I know lots of privately educated adults who haven't got a lot in the way of qualifications. In fact a lot of highly successful people did spectacularly badly at school-Winston Churchill and Richard Branston spring to mind, and I don't think they would have been any different however pushy their mothers had been.
Anyone successful needs to be self driven and able to learn from their own mistakes. Driven by parents and being expected to learn from parent's mistakes simply doesn't work.

I suspect the Mum in violethill's post may be very well educated indeed.
I know loads of Alpha Mammas who went to great universities and were terribly ambitious in their work lives. They were driven and had well paid careers that they excelled in.
Once they have children they eschew all that. They frown on working Mums, believing that every second of their day must be given over to their offspring.
Not for them, pottering about, kissing their babies heads. These are the baby gymers, the baby signers,etc.
When their kids go to school they become ever more frightening, turning cake stalls into military ops. They know the reading level of every kid in the class and proudly inform you that they are looking into secondary schools in year three.
It's not that they adore their children any more or indeed less than the head kissers, it's just that all that ambition has to go somewhere.

I think you are probably right Litchick!
The mother in violethill's post may have been a high achiever but it doesn't really matter if she was or she wasn't-the very sad thing was that she had decided what her daughter should do and then was disappointed when the daughter was very successful, because it didn't match up to her expectations. She should have been able to rejoice in what her DD achieved.

I got 'mediocre student who messed around'from the OP,happywomble,she most definitely was wanting her DD to achieve what she hadn't managed herself.

Those type of mothers are truly dreadful Litchick, and are often extremely unpopular with the school staff(even though they can't show it! )I'm sure we all know what you mean.

HappyWomble - no, I didn't say the mother in question was a mediocre student, or that she was poorly educated. As far as I'm aware she was reasonably bright, but I do think it's relevant that she didn't work (this was a mother of teenagers btw!) because part of her reason for harping on about Oxbridge/top grades etc was because she wanted all her children to have 'excellent careers' (whatever that may mean - presumably not a housewife like she was!).

Ultimately, children (and indeed people of any age) tend to learn best by example don;t they? What they see around them rather than what they are told. It therefore follows that eg: if you value reading, it is more likely that your children will develop a love of it if you have plenty of books around the home, read yourself and talk about literature. Likewise with current affairs - if you watch the news, read a quality newspaper and talk over dinner about world affairs, your children are more likely to develop an awareness. And if you want your children to realise that an interesting career is a really good way to earn your living as an adult, then have one yourself and show them first hand that it's interesting and stimulating.

Of course, there are no guarantees that any of our children will follow a particular path, and why should they? They have their own life. But I believe if you expose your children to the experiences you value, then they will have a good grounding and awareness from which to make their own choices.

If the DD were bright enough she would get into Oxbridge irrespective of her parents achievements.

I disagree you need extremely well informed parents to stand a chance, intelligence almost has little to do with it.

Going back to the OP, I guess there's an underlying psychology for many people that says - if you go private there is a better chance dcs will have a successful life, not get in with the wrong crowd etc. If it all goes pear shaped, you know you've done everything you could but hey, that's life. Whereas, if you can afford private but don't, and everything goes pear shaped, you would forever think 'if only i'd sent them to that school!'

We are lucky here to have good state schools but if i'm honest I would send them privately if I had the money.

That's an interesting point manicmother. So the 12K per year per child or whatever is nore about 'buying' peace of mind for the parent rather than necessarily 'buying' a 'better' education. I think you're right with some parents certainly - particularly those who were private/grammar school educated themselves and are maybe coming at it from a position of narrow experience.

*more

Winston C and Richard Branson went to private schools, that's the point. Even if your lazy teenager emerges from private school with very few GCSEs he will probahly h ave a life confidence, friends and contacts, accent and very broad rounded education to fall back on when he gets back on his feet and gets on with life. That's in a sense what I buy rather than an ability to mould all 5 of them and having 5 I don't put parental ambition into them and never having given up work to have children and always having worked full time I have my own work ambition and lovely career such that I don't need children as substitutes for it.

I am happy to pay but then I made sure I picked a career where I could afford to do that. Plenty of women don't bother to do that and then if they can't afford fees it's their own fault in a sense because they made unwise career decisions earlier or stupidly gave up work to have children to rely on male earnings which are not large enough to fund fees at good schools.

Also the teacing in private schools of teh kinds ours went to Haberdashers, North London Collegiate, Merchant Taylors which tend to be in the top 20 schools in the UK from all sectors, they are definitely worth getting places at and the teaching is very good (plus I like the lakes and grounds and classical music and parents' choirs and all the extra curricular stuff and the other parents are more interesing and clever and nice to talk to and even to look at (!) than at your local comp.

Right, I've made a note to go to all the open days at those schools just so I can eye up the handsome dads

... or maybe picked careers where they felt they were doing a worthwhile job for altruistic reasons Xenia. Some of us CHOOSE careers that are less well paid simply because we get a great deal of fulfillment from the career in question - not because we "chose unwisely". Yes I'd love a private education for my son - no I won't ever have enough money to afford it but with an interested and involved Mum I feel he will get the support he needs both at his lovely state school AND at home.

The thought of a parents choir makes me shudder!!

There are beautiful lakes around where I live, and also plenty of classical concerts on offer - so thankfully I don't feel the need to pay private school fees to have access to walking around someone else's lake!

And I have a gorgeous man of my own to eye up- far better than having to be a private school daddy groupie

I love singing so for me it's a plus pointb ut obviously not for everyone and only of course if the parents themselves went to good schools are they likely to have the vocal skills and ability to sight sing that means the choir will be good. Therefore I doubt a parents' choir attached to your local comp is going to be able to sight read music very well or sing it etc.

But that's by the by . For me it's the ability to ensure the children are with other children with an IQ of 120+ I suppose which I principally pay for and to put them in a cohort where everyone goes to good universities to read proper subjects as teenagers are mostly led by their peers by that stage.

We have a duty to our children or future children when we pick careers and if you can pick a career where you do good and earn a lot which I believ I have then for the good of your children women should pick the better paid careers so they can buy a good education for their off spring perhaps.

Oh Xenia you surpass yourself....

'only of course if the parents themselves went to good schools are they likely to have the vocal skills and ability to sight sing that means the choir will be good'

ROFL.

Is an IQ of 120+ a pre requisite for private schools now? I thought it was just a bank balance of 120+ (a few noughts) that was required...
I'm with violethill I can't think of anything worse than being "entertained" by a parents choir except perhaps being asked to join one.

mrz

You could always join your local choral society or even the Bach choir.

They wouldn't have me

Tis not the same though happywomble. They won't be nearly as good looking as those private school mummies and daddies. Heaven forbid, you might even have to stand next to state educated riffraff

Do they check in the local choral society or Bach choir that the choristers have an IQ of 120+??? Might unfortunately rule out some of the privately educated applicants.....