How much influence to you really think you have over your DC's future?

[faraday]

Had an interesting w/e with an old, pre- children friend. We get on like a house on fire except for the issue of education.

I genuinely feel you'd be hard pressed to meet someone who feels she has her hand so totally on the rudder of her DSs future! They are Y4 and 6.

Her DSs are both being privately prepped. After almost 4 years for her DS1, I SO can't see what she's buying that MY DS1, 11 months younger doesn't get (state, but perhaps in a -ahem- 'nicer' area?). BUT I am almost shocked at the zeal of her belief that she can mould and shape her DSs future through their barely affordable education... (about to be 13K pa for DS1 as he enters Y7!!).

Now, my cards on the table: I cannot deny that it irks me that her ability to afford the 11K pa fees for her 2 x DSs has been 'won' on the back of one of our erstwhile 'leading banks' bonus scheme (ie the small classes, the spoon feeding, the individual attention). And it IS true that that 'bonus' largesse is in seriously short supply right now- to the extent of possibly (whisper) redundancy. She readily 'recognises' her 'cosseted' DSs inability to function outside the private sector (increasingly true as they get older) which is why they DH and her, like many, will move heaven and earth to keep them there- though I felt the idea that the school's 'charity status' will fund the next 5 years of DS1's ed and 7 years of DS2's was perhaps a little optimistic, SHOULD DH lose his job...

BUT the thing is, my friend- and she is, before I get the barbed 'How dare' you call her a friend yet not support every outer- edged fantasy she embarks on?- BUT she readily also says she feels her mother 'failed' her for not 'pushing' her at school thus she feels she was destined for far greater things in life... but thing is, she's now 40- and has done nothing (that SHE'D count as achievements as there isn't always a certificate attached!) SINCE. She regards her career (same as mine) as a little job she pootles at whilst her DH does the REAL work (ie earns the big money).

She admitted to me this w/e that she is 'ludicrously ambitious' for her DSs...

DOES 13K a year guarantee that?? The boys meeting her expectations? IS that reasonable? Or am I deluded?

My feeling is that her DSs aren't being 'educated', they're being 'trained'- for 'well paid/non-minion' jobs. I kind of like the idea that I DON'T have absolute mastery over what my DSs are doing in school, who they associate with, what ideas are being introduced- and that includes ideas I'm not 100% happy with!

SHOULD I or even COULD I have any more influence over DSs who are just beginning to flex the wings of puberty? Who's under an illusion? My friend for feeling she's buying control or me with my laissez faire?!

I wonder though, ickle, is it actually the school that gives them that or is it just re-enforcing what they already get at home?
The children at my DCs school have the best of everything in life...food, homes, interested, attentive parents, travel, books etc. I wonder if they could fail to thrive where ever they were schooled.
I volunteer at my local primary and the children there get hardly any of those things. The council estate they live on is crime and drug ridden, the food they eat is shocking, their parents couldn't give a shit ( which is why the head asked me to help out) etc.
Even if those children had the school advantage of my DCs I wonder if that would be enough.
Don't know the answer, btw, just musing.

very good point....possibly... but then most of the dc's parents are working every hour of the day to send them to said schools! so perhaps not??

A huge proprtion of the Mums are SAHMs too or like me work flexibly around the children.
TI kid you not - these kids have golden lives. Obviously no-one's lives are perfect but they seem very close.
Litchick remembers her own days on a council estate in Yorkshire and tries not to be green with envy.

"Even now in my 40s it is so very dull when I'm with people who are very slow. I just don't enjoy conversatnios with people with very slow brains and it's the same in school."

Ah, this is where our views differ. Because I see the ability to converse with and find an interest in people with different (read slower) minds as a skill- a bit like speaking another language- something that I am pleased to see that dd is developing and getting better at as she grows older. Something that I was frankly awful at as a young child, but have gradually got better at. Fairly essential to me as a university teacher, absolutely vital to dd if she is going to acquire her dream of becoming a writer.

Quote from Xenia

'I now most comps stream too of course but it's even better in the better private schools. '

(I presume she means 'know' not 'now)

Actually most comps set rather than stream, which is far more effective than streaming. And the phrase 'but it's even better in the private schools' is absolutely meaningless!!

My dc's comp has top sets where all the students are likely to achieve A*. And in fact the next two sets down from that will be full of A/B grade students. So how is that inferior to a private school's classes?

Face it Xenia, you just don't want to accept that other people who have bright top set kids are getting for free what you have to pay a lot of money for.

So true violethill as i tell my GS pupils - you are getting a private education for free - most leave with 11/12 A*/A/B GCSE's with the odd smattering of C's. There are so many extra curricular opportunities available including debating, law society, chamber choir, school choir, 2 orchestras, early music, tennis, netball etc etc (th elist of extra curricular clubs runs at over 70 or so) all standard private school fare - but for free! So its all about the accents then...mmm worth it!

oh well of course - thats gotta be worth the 100 grand you'd spend

c'mon - that's not a quarter of a year's wages to the x factor. If she wants to spend her cash that way why not?

Oh I totally agree there Litchick - entirely up to our xenia how she chooses to spend her dosh.

Just can't be doing with her appalling lack of knowledge about the state sector.

Fair enough - but here on MN there's plenty of misinformation about the indie sector - what with all those drug addled, spoonfed, pressurised, emotionally retarded, stupid, uncared for kids in private school, my own kids can hardly learn their ancient greek.

But just because you don't like one poster doesn't excuse being mean about lots of other lovely kids you've never met.
You point out some horrors and say they are privately educated as if there were a link. If I point out the children currently in Feltham and tell you that they were state eductaed is there a link? Of course not.

Agree, litchick, some truly shocking stereotypes about private educated children. Borne out of ignorance, I assume.

I'm not particularly posh and my chidlren's father worked in both private and state schools. I know a lot more about schools than most people nad have had 5 children at lots of schools albeit in the private sector only in the last 20+ years. I also know there are good local state schools including not so far away in Bucks and I certainly don't have posh children who denigrate others. We're not that sort of family at all but the fact I like chidlren to be educated with other children who are clever, in single sex schools and in a nice environment is not too different from how most middle class parents are.

As for money I' m not materialistic. There's little I'd rather spend money on than educating my children. The money isn't important. I could have bought a lot of things with it and indeed I thought this would be my last year of funding 4 / 5 children and in fact it turns out the 2nd and 3rd ones I'll be funding another year too but I'm not losing any sleep over that.

The reality is that on the whole there is little better you can do in terms of financial investment in chidlren to improve their life outcomes than paying fees in the UK. It confers a massive life advantage in all kinds of ways which is why more than half of paernts would pay if they could. It hardly needs saying. If you can't afford it because you made stupid career decisions, married badly or aren't clever enough to earn the money then of course the 93% of UK children in the state sector mostly do okay so no point in beating yourself up over it.

Anyway there's the moral case too that if you could pay you should relieve the state sector of the burden of your children and if you're a capitalist on principle you ought to pay.

'The reality is that on the whole there is little better you can do in terms of financial investment in chidlren to improve their life outcomes than paying fees in the UK. '

Ah now this is where it all depends on how you measure 'life outcomes'. Because in real life, most people's priorities are not simply financial wealth. Most people are more concerned about having good, happy successful relationships with their partner, children and wider family, having interests that fulfil them and having an interesting job they enjoy. Yes, of course money is important too, and to an extent it can bring choice, but the bottom line is, there is no direct correllation that shows the more money you earn the happier you are.

I could pay private school fees for each of my children if I wanted, so to that extent I guess I am fortunate. We currently pay for just one. But frankly, I believe having parents who are happy together, who provide positive experiences for them, and who are both well educated (in the state sector!) and have interesting professional jobs is far more likely to be influential in terms of helping them grow towards happy, fulfilled adulthood.

Xernia, you keep repeating the phrase "stupid career decisions".

Is it ever going to sink in that to many people choosing a career for the sheer love of it/ because you think you'll enjoy doing it/ because you see it as a useful contribution to society/ because it fits in with other things you want to achieve in life is not a "stupid career decision"?

This mindset has kept my family happy and entertained for three generations: what more could one ask?

And imo learning to cope with a frugal life as a child can be just as conducive to future success, if success is defined as the ability to choose something that makes you happy and makes you feel you are not wasting your talents.

'And imo learning to cope with a frugal life as a child can be just as conducive to future success, if success is defined as the ability to choose something that makes you happy and makes you feel you are not wasting your talents.'

so true cory.

It always strikes me as rather ironic that in the world according to Xenia, there is actually very little choice (even though she thinks there is!) because each generation that goes through private school then has to earn enough to pay for the next generation to be privately educated.. So if they actually want to eg: use those musical talents to play in the London Symphony Orchestra , just as an example, then they sure as hell won't earn enough for private school fees!

It's as though they've stepped onto this giant treadmill where the driving force is being able to afford school fees and where there is a mortal fear of going anywhere near a state school. And god help any of them who are individual enough to stick their neck out and say 'Actually I don't want to go into this career because it's highly paid, or marry this man because he earns well' - because as you rightly point out cory, they won;t have the confidence that they can cope and achieve any other way.

dd dreams of being a writer

of course, I have no means of knowing if she has the talent to produce anything worthwhile

and I am strongly encouraging her to get as much formal education as she can to fall back on

but at least I do know that she has the ability to live on lentil bakes and kidney stew if she decides to really go for it

Why does anyone take any notice of Xenia?

I mean her assumptions about state schooling are so ignorant and absurd that it makes me wonder if anything else she writes about could possibly be true. It is a shame for all parents on this forum, who do educate their children privately, to have the education they are paying for look so utterly pointless when they have to read Xenia's posts.

I am sure there are plenty of parents in the independent sector who do not hold Xenia's views.

I completely agree that a private educatbion buys advantage. It would be waste of money otherwise. However, it doesn't necessarily buy intelligence.

*EDUCATION obviously....

*EDUCATION obviously....