How much influence to you really think you have over your DC's future?

[faraday]

Had an interesting w/e with an old, pre- children friend. We get on like a house on fire except for the issue of education.

I genuinely feel you'd be hard pressed to meet someone who feels she has her hand so totally on the rudder of her DSs future! They are Y4 and 6.

Her DSs are both being privately prepped. After almost 4 years for her DS1, I SO can't see what she's buying that MY DS1, 11 months younger doesn't get (state, but perhaps in a -ahem- 'nicer' area?). BUT I am almost shocked at the zeal of her belief that she can mould and shape her DSs future through their barely affordable education... (about to be 13K pa for DS1 as he enters Y7!!).

Now, my cards on the table: I cannot deny that it irks me that her ability to afford the 11K pa fees for her 2 x DSs has been 'won' on the back of one of our erstwhile 'leading banks' bonus scheme (ie the small classes, the spoon feeding, the individual attention). And it IS true that that 'bonus' largesse is in seriously short supply right now- to the extent of possibly (whisper) redundancy. She readily 'recognises' her 'cosseted' DSs inability to function outside the private sector (increasingly true as they get older) which is why they DH and her, like many, will move heaven and earth to keep them there- though I felt the idea that the school's 'charity status' will fund the next 5 years of DS1's ed and 7 years of DS2's was perhaps a little optimistic, SHOULD DH lose his job...

BUT the thing is, my friend- and she is, before I get the barbed 'How dare' you call her a friend yet not support every outer- edged fantasy she embarks on?- BUT she readily also says she feels her mother 'failed' her for not 'pushing' her at school thus she feels she was destined for far greater things in life... but thing is, she's now 40- and has done nothing (that SHE'D count as achievements as there isn't always a certificate attached!) SINCE. She regards her career (same as mine) as a little job she pootles at whilst her DH does the REAL work (ie earns the big money).

She admitted to me this w/e that she is 'ludicrously ambitious' for her DSs...

DOES 13K a year guarantee that?? The boys meeting her expectations? IS that reasonable? Or am I deluded?

My feeling is that her DSs aren't being 'educated', they're being 'trained'- for 'well paid/non-minion' jobs. I kind of like the idea that I DON'T have absolute mastery over what my DSs are doing in school, who they associate with, what ideas are being introduced- and that includes ideas I'm not 100% happy with!

SHOULD I or even COULD I have any more influence over DSs who are just beginning to flex the wings of puberty? Who's under an illusion? My friend for feeling she's buying control or me with my laissez faire?!

Xenia - one of the few women in power in this country (jacqui smith) went to a state school and not a particularly good one.

My private school had no carpets. Surely they don't help the acoustics for music?

I think there are benefits of single sex education for girls. Agree with you on that one!

Xenia, I think the criticism is that perhaps you have a slightly unrealistic view of some state schools.

As I have said before, on other threads and I don't wish to bore other participants to this thread, the children at my DCs state school are all highly intelligent, well spoken, sing in choirs, do public speaking, debate, get into Oxbridge, have clever parents (who may or may not sing in choirs), are able to converse with upper echelons of society, buy clothes from Jack Wills (unfortunately), have glossy hair, get invited to parties, etc etc........

Some of the parents are quite good looking too.

it's all over by the age of 4 so don't worry about it!

Please tell me you aren't holding up Jacqui Smith as something women should aspire to ? Her incompetence is breath taking, in all honesty she is there as the token woman I suspect even she knows that.

No I am no fan of hers and have certainly never voted labour.

Xenia was talking about women in positions of power which is why I mentioned her.

I do agree with a lot Xenia says, I wish I'd made more of my career when I had it, I enjoy and treasure the time I have at home with the children but am convinced there was a smarter way, not too late though to rectify things.

I agree that girls need to be given every opportunity to strive to achieve but i guess ultimately biology always comes to call...

so my duty as a woman is to take a well paid job to enable my dcs to attend a school which will then enable them to get a well paid job so that their dcs (presumably) can attend the type of school...

or will there ever come a generation that has the right to just take a job because that is what they want to do with their lives?

and if so- why can't it be my generation?

It's not your duty cory but it is your choice to do so.
There will always be some people who work for the money, some people who work for the love of it and a tiny lucky few who love what they do and get paid lots for it, I guess that's what we all aim for.

Xenia, a lot of state schools have carpets. The state special school I work at has amazing grounds and lovely facilities.

The parents are very varied. Most of them are fab, but there are definately some truely looney parents. I have no idea what their singing ablity is like, but certainly some of their kids can sing.

There are a couple of kids with perfect pitch and very sensitive hearing.

There isn't a lake, but the school does have a duck pond and its own zoo. There were some kids in from the local private school and they all comment that the quality of ICT is better.

cory, you can do that when we have had say 100 years with about equal numbers of men and women in power. At the moment we are ni historical terms a tiny period beyond the 1970 Equal Pay Act when women and men got the same pay for the same work and if we're not careful the gains they've made will disappear particularly if on the whole most women in good jobs tend to give them up and not get back to them when they have babies.

As for Ms Smith I'm not a great fan but not sure if that's on visual grounds or class/accent grounds or political grounds as I don't really know much about her.

But the question on the thread was was it worth paying? not if you'll resent it all your flie. If you can feel like me I'll pay and if they end up working in a monastery or becoming poets or whatever they will have had a good education and that's fine, rather than - here is a child, I want to make it do X career, then it's fine. What you want is to pay for a good education and all the other aspects of that and nice peers and the like and I suppose the segregation from chidlren who aren't very bright or who aren't from very good homes and from children of the other sex, rather than I am buying an A level grade which has never been my view.

I think that we are poles apart! I don't like selective education and am not keen on single sex schools. I don't want to be a woman of power and if I was a man I wouldn't want to be a man of power-it simply doesn't interest me.
However, it is your choice, Xenia-at least you realise that you are not buying the A level grade.
If someone is ambitious for their DC to go to Oxbridge, they can pay for the sort of education that is likely to provide it and they can 'push' their DC but ultimately it is up to the DC and with the best will in the world it might not work out. My Oxford educated friend has just had her public school DS leave at 16yrs-he had had enough of studying. You are just lucky if you have DCs who take after you-they may not have the same ideals. (I think you might be tearing your hair out if you had a DD like me, Xenia!!)

As a well educated person I have deliberately taken a very low paid job so I can invest my time in my children before they go to school. I feel this is the best way for me to ensure they do well in later life. As I said much earlier in the thread, economic studies suggest the more you invest in children at a younger age the higher the benefits in terms of income in later life.
We all do our best in our own way don't we? So long as we encourage children in their aspirations and give them responsibility and independence to make their own decisions none of us need worry surely?

I agree ourlot-we all do it our own way, and one way isn't superior to another. You have to take into account the personality of the DC.

'So long as we encourage children in their aspirations and give them responsibility and independence to make their own decisions none of us need worry surely? '

I think this is all anyone should do-with the emphasis being on own.

"all the other aspects of that and nice peers and the like and I suppose the segregation from chidlren who aren't very bright or who aren't from very good homes and from children of the other sex"

That is my very reason for NOT wanting my dc to go to private school. This very mentality of segragation. YUK!!

I was brought up in a similar 'we are better than you' type of environment and it's sooo poisonus. And what c**p is the 'nice peers' bit? How do private school insure that just 'nice' pupils go there? That's tricky. And the 'not bright'? Bright in what? OH please. If I was ever in doubt re my children's education (was not) this has made it for me. The thought of my dc, and me, mixing up with xenias and mini xenias gives me te creeps.
sorry no offense just applying your school of thought and making my own segregation!

I don't really understand the mentality of wanting children who will end up with the exact same views, interests and aspirations as ourselves anyway.

Surely there's something a bit more exciting and imaginative about raising children who may end up in a range of different occupations, living in different areas etc? I certainly don't assume that my children when they grow up will be living along the road, all doing the same jobs as each other. How dull that would be!

As I said before, I believe people learn best by example, rather than by what they're told they should enjoy/do. Therefore, if you value reading, far better to have books around, and read yourself. Doesn't make much sense to tell your children they ought to be reading good books if you never open one yourself! I believe that having an interesting career is a good way to earn a living as an adult, and I certainly find it preferable to just stacking shelves or whatever to pay the bills. And because I believe that, I have an interesting career. It wouldn't make much sense to me to be telling my kids to get a good education and get good careers if I wasn't doing it myself! But as I also said, there are no guarantees, and if one of my kids ends up maybe doing a mundane job just to pay the bills because perhaps they want to focus on other hobbies/interests, or if they want to take off around the world and travel, then that's up to them. They have their own lives to live.

Xenia has quite extreme views, but then I've always felt that her desire to raise children who have very similar views to herself is probably more extreme than most. One of my dc's is very interested in politics and current affairs, and is pretty well informed about them. His views on certain issues are quite different to mine. That's fine! In fact I think it's great that he doesn't feel he has to conform to what I think, or his dad thinks - he has his own mind. Isn't that what we should want for our children?

It's what I want for mine violethill!
I want them to be healthy and happy with their choices in life. That is it really, except that I hope they will still want to see me as adults because they have pleasure in my company. Whether they become Prime Minister or live in a tent digging up Roman pottery is all the same to me-as long as they find it fulfilling.

'quite extreme views', exactly! Not a great asset IMO.

I do aim to give them opportunities to have the widest possible choice which means a good education.

Absolutely pisces - I often think the only thing that really matters is that my children want to spend time with DH and me when they are adults. Doesn't matter if they live 2 miles or 200 miles away... I just hope they enjoy our company and we enjoy theirs.

Back to the original post - yes, I can see why you feel this, and I am inclined to agree. I don't like the things private schools stand for. I also think she is doing the 'clever' thing in going for a state 6th form college - because coming a state educational background is going to make oxbridge & most universities look more favourably on most candidates.

I always maintained that I just wanted my DCs to be 'happy', when under intense questioning from parents who have chosen to educate their children privately rather than 'risk' the state sector. I still think that, now one is about to graduate, another at university and one still at school. But I am very lucky in that they are all reasonably bright and went/go to an excellent, high achieving state school, so I can indulge to a certain exent in just wanting them to be 'happy'.

However, as they are all as 'clever' as the likes of (for instance) Xenia's children, we could have been pushing them to follow DH to Cambridge, become doctor or lawyer or any other high powered career, I am sure they all have the ability to do that, but they are simply not interested and I learnt a long time ago there is no point in forcing any child to do something they don't want to. Give them opportunities, yes, but they have to want to do it themselves in the end.

Also I am not too keen on only being defined by one's job, there's more to life than that.

Xenia on Thu 16-Apr-09 06:29:32
"cory, you can do that when we have had say 100 years with about equal numbers of men and women in power"

but I will be too old to work at my chosen career by then!!!

the interesting thing is, Xenia, you keep saying it is ok for your children to choose something non-high-powered

but that our generation must choose with a view to equipping them, not for our own sakes

why? will the 100 years have passed by then? (surely not)

afraid I am far too selfish to wait for my dd to have the fun of choosing a career for love: I want to have that myself

note that I do believe in teaching her to work hard, to give her all whatever she does, to believe in herself etc- I just don't equate success with earning power

I certainly have never ever said I want children to have the same views as I have. Theones frmo private schools seem to have views and debate things really well and the ones from the state system grunt, don't have views and just watch MTV... I am sure that's a bit of a generalisation but private school seems to help them be articulate in having their own political views. I adore that they do and that all my 5 are so different.

I certainly agree with the example point too. Children learn when they are young from how their parents are as much as what their parents say, more so.

I want to give them opportunties and am happy if they pick from that wide range of stuff they have been offered.

But I definitely agere with selective education. Even now in my 40s it is so very dull when I'm with people who are very slow. I just don't enjoy conversatnios with people with very slow brains and it's the same in school. You want to be in a class with clever other children who are enthused about the work and bounce ideas off each other. I now most comps stream too of course but it's even better in the better private schools.

ola all.

i think we forget that not all kids who go to private school end up with a host of a grades and heading for top university. but what private school does seem to give children is the confidence to aspire to be whatever they want to be and to thrive in whatever situation they might find themselves in.