Permanent exclusion from high school

[Deeg1]

Hi looking for some extra advice my child been in a fight outside of school over the weekend and not in uniform. The latter part of the fight has been videoed which only shows my child getter the better of the other child. The other pupil approached my child first and made horrible threats and then a fight erupted . There is no evidence to show who started it. However the other pupil has done a statement and showed video and my child has been excluded permanently in less than an hour and without my child having their say or a statement. Other witness statements were taken after the decision is made. Some statements have been interfered with and input by a couple of teachers. There was no investigation prior to the decision and still no statement from my child. After sending notification to headmaster to retract as I felt it was procedurally unfair I was told of if I wanted they would retract but only if I was agreeable to a managed permanent transfer to another school. It has been put on record assaulting another pupil with no evidence of how it started. My child is achieving academically well at school and has glowing reports at parents evening. She gets detentions and things but nothing really serious. It’s set at the moment to go before governors to decide but I just feel the school have been so underhanded with the way it has conducted it. Also the other pupil in question is always in isolation and not exactly a role model pupil. Any body else been through anything similar thanks in advance

At some of the strict academies this is definitely the case. My friend's daughter got a detention for not having the correct equipment in class because her pen ran out during the lesson! Some of these places sound utterly miserable.

I am Chair of Governors at my DSs secondary school. I can say with certainty that I and my fellow governors would overturn a decision if we thought it was unfair or if the school had failed to follow the correct procedure. We have done it in the past and despite making decisions which were very unpopular with the school/Trust, wouldn't hesitate to do it again.

The girl pushed my daughter first

Do you know this because she told you that? Or because other students have corroborated her version of events?

Having been a Head of Year, I can tell you that teenagers lie. Even parents who swear their child never lies, whose children have never previously been in trouble. A teenager backed into a corner will panic and lie.

Well, in contrast to this statement I am a high school governor in England and we frequently overturn what the HT has done if upon scrutiny we find insufficient due process etc. I'd say we change more than 50% of the decisions. Its called good governance. We have a very good relationship with our school and HT verified by ofsted very recently. It means that any subsequent appeals higher up at LA level are likely to find in the school's favour as we only let the watertight ones stand in the first place.

It's very difficult for a school to do a permanent exclusion and they have to follow due process. They won't do it because of a few detentions and girls pulling each others hair or whatever.

For something like this I would expect a temporary exclusion - maybe a few days. A few years ago I knew of someone who attacked another boy who had made a nasty remark about his disabled sister. He was excluded for three days.

Also when my son started his secondary school a couple of older boys were excluded for drug use. One permanently as he had give it to the others. The others had temporary exclusions.

There has to be a LOT more to this. Knives or drugs. Or both.

@Deeg1Heads work with governors and governors set ethos and strategy. I would say the head has their backing and they want a strict school. You don’t like the ethos, and I don’t blame you. However the governors appointed the head and it’s not unknown for governors to ignore parents and prefer to support the head and not lose face. They won’t admit the head is doing anything wrong because they want this strategy.

Unfortunately, now appeals are not with the LA, the Governors’ appeal panels are not always impartial either. I’ve also seen heads attempt to add in new “evidence” that’s nothing to do with the incident. Some governors are not even aware of the rules.

In this case, does dd want to stay or not? Would she rather have a new start elsewhere? Do you feel she will be a marked dc if she gets reinstated?

I can see why you want to fight this and from my experience it’s harsh to permanently exclude IF it’s a first serious offence. Most heads get an investigation done and are pretty thorough with statements and do listen to dc if they have not been in this sort of trouble before. You have a head who is purging the school and sending out his message. His way or the highway! So can you tolerate that?

Honestly, a fresh start might well be better. Do you really need a school like this? Of course make sure dd understands that she must not react to verbal insults with a fight or life will get very tough.

Former criminal barrister here..

What does "get the better of" her mean. What does the video show?

Self defence has to be reasonable and proportionate. If the other girl pushed her and then ended up on the floor being kicked (not saying she was.. just an example) then it can be an assault regardless of who started it.

Have you seen the footage? What does your daughter say "getting the better of her" entails?

My daughter has had detentions for the same her board market had ran out and that’s a detention not correct equipment . It’s an extremely strict regime

Well the girl made the most disgusting comment to my daughter which tbh I don’t know how this girl could say such an evil act. Then my daughter said what did you say and she got in her face said you heard me the first time and pushed her then my daughter reacted and they was both fighting each other and as the boy holding the camera comes running up videoing shows my daughter get her on the floor and as soon as the other girls stops fighting back my daughter gets off her and walks away without saying anything and the other girls stops fighting gets up quickly and they both just walk off in separate directions . It’s all very quick a matter of seconds . They are both stood up at first fighting each other but you can only see that in the distance so you have to zoom in but the latter part is a lot clearer

So the girl said something, your DD got right up in her face, the girl pushed your DD to make her step back, and then your DD attacked her until they were on the ground, with your DD on top, and your DD was hitting and slapping the girl until she stopped fighting back?

Yeah, that doesn't look good for your DD. That is not a proportionate response to someone saying something or self defence.

Just to be clear, did your daughter push, tackle, and/or punch the girl over? Are we talking punching? Slapping? Kicking? Pulling hair? Something else? In one or both directions?

It doesn't change the apparent procedural issues with the school's actions so far but the totality your daughter did, even though provoked, is helpful for people to understand the likely fair punishment in a reasonable school and hence to help advise on what to do in the situation.

I would write to my MP . You need to stick to facts and not opinions. You can’t say “the teachers have it in for my daughter or prompted statements etc”. What you can say is “I don’t feel the way evidence was gathered was truly impartial . When I taught it was drummed in not to use leading questions like “so you saw x hit y first?” Only write what the child said and maybe say “and then what happened?”.

Youll also want to say something along the lines of you accept your daughters behaviour was not the best way of handling things and you are happy to discuss a reasonable punishment to be handed out by the school . You’ll also maybe want to think of what you have done to punish and/or seek help for her.

That sounds horrendous all round. But if the girl is on the floor and your daughter is on top of her hitting her in some way, even with the procedural mess, I am not sure why any school would take her back, even with the provocation.
There is a huge difference between shoving someone back and what came next.
It still turns my stomach that other kids film it as well.
Maybe it is time to take your daughter out of this school and give her a fresh start.

Thank you so much and this is what I ponder on . I feel I owe it to my daughter to fight and a lot of parents put in official complaints but just give up and move the children because they have had enough with the way the school is run. I do sometimes consider taking the offer of a nice and the Pex removed but then still putting in an official complaint of how it’s been handled and how I was pressured to moving her schools just so that this won’t ever happen to another child and I don’t just mean this I mean above the board of how he runs this school. He does run it like it’s his school and I think he needs reminding that he works for the schoool and local education authorities and that there are statutory guidelines and I know he won’t back down even if he knows he has committed procedural failures because he won’t be wrong because he wants to prove that when he says something it happens but is that really fair and should he have such authority

You need to stick to facts and not opinions. You can’t say “the teachers have it in for my daughter or prompted statements etc”

But unfortunately that's the gist of what OP is saying, @TwinklySquid, from the opinions that the head's some kind of power crazed martinet to the repeated assertions that teachers (only now it's become support staff) have encouraged the falsification of statements, and that this whole decision was made in minutes

If this is what happened, and with the video evidence, then I have to say that several of the headteachers I work with would probably have permanently excluded your daughter. They may well have permanently excluded the other girl as well if there was footage to show her hitting your daughter, but any action taken against the other girl is between the head and her parents and is not something that will be shared with you.

Given that it happened out of school and not on the journey there or back why is the school involved?

@JohnofWessex Because the head lawfully can be. The attached is the latest government guidance.

It’s how you say it. If you say “the staff have rigged this “ etc, you’ll come across mad. Instead you say “ I don’t feel my daughter has been treated fairly. I am worried the statements were not taken in the most professional manner.”

Op, if you want practical actionable advice, then you need to tell us the full story, even the bits that go against your daughter. There are lots of knowledgeable people here who can help you if you do this.

I am a school governor and the school should have an exclusion policy that they should follow. Your child should be spoken to for a statement and it must go through governors for permanent exclusion and to a panel. I would request a copy of the policy and contact the governors ASAP.

Having to wait all summer before this issue is dealt with will be very hard for both you and your daughter. The timing couldn’t be worse. Is she Yesr 9 going into Year 10?

@ByRealLemonFox Is it not on web sites? It should be. The op cannot just contact the governors! Are you on an exclusion panel? There’s a timetable and principles of natural justice the head and governors must legally follow. The clerk arranges the meetings in accordance with the law.

How did they lose the fight was it as a result of an assault?

they was both fighting each other and as the boy holding the camera comes running up videoing shows my daughter get her on the floor and as soon as the other girls stops fighting back my daughter gets off her and walks away