Permanent exclusion from high school

[Deeg1]

Hi looking for some extra advice my child been in a fight outside of school over the weekend and not in uniform. The latter part of the fight has been videoed which only shows my child getter the better of the other child. The other pupil approached my child first and made horrible threats and then a fight erupted . There is no evidence to show who started it. However the other pupil has done a statement and showed video and my child has been excluded permanently in less than an hour and without my child having their say or a statement. Other witness statements were taken after the decision is made. Some statements have been interfered with and input by a couple of teachers. There was no investigation prior to the decision and still no statement from my child. After sending notification to headmaster to retract as I felt it was procedurally unfair I was told of if I wanted they would retract but only if I was agreeable to a managed permanent transfer to another school. It has been put on record assaulting another pupil with no evidence of how it started. My child is achieving academically well at school and has glowing reports at parents evening. She gets detentions and things but nothing really serious. It’s set at the moment to go before governors to decide but I just feel the school have been so underhanded with the way it has conducted it. Also the other pupil in question is always in isolation and not exactly a role model pupil. Any body else been through anything similar thanks in advance

This is what you need to hear @Deeg1

Okay, so it does meet the threshold for the DfE’s guidance.
Whether it meets the threshold for being reasonable, rational and fair is for the governors to decide at the hearing and the school will now be putting together the pack of evidence to back its case.
The other student is of no concern to you as the school will not share what is happening to them. You need to concentrate on a succinct argument why your daughter shouldn’t be PEX’d.
At the PEX’s I clerk, the local authority have a representative there and that ensures all processes are confirmed as being carried out correctly.
One of the first questions will be has a managed move been explored, and if you have not cooperated with a MM then it is very likely the PEX will be upheld, in my experience.
Be aware that once a hearing starts, the Governors have to go through the process, and reach a decision.
Also, if you have any evidence to bring to it, ensure this is submitted to the clerk 5 days before the hearing. In a recent PEX, the parent brought in 60 pages of “evidence” which I had to get copied for each participant and then the hearing had to be adjourned for an hour to give the panel and school the time to read it. None of the evidence was of substance as it was anonymous character references, social media posts and phone records. I could see this did not impress the Governors - the most powerful contribution was that of the student who was able to put her side of things, without the emotion of her mother, but she admitted she had been involved in the incident and many more beforehand, which sealed her fate but at least the panel were able to hear from and question her.

The rules around PEX are very clear and school must follow them. There is a quirk with procedures where school can’t suspend while it investigates and then PEX so I suspect that they done pex now as a “placeholder”. It’s a clumsy way around unhelpful guidance.
There has to be a governors hearing / it will be in Sept now. Governors will need a lot of evidence and lack of contemporary student voice is a huge issue. She and you can go to the hearing. They are formal and governors need to look carefully. It’s not a rubber stamp, we do overturn! One important thing is alternative to PEX being considered, hence managed move suggestion.
If it’s upheld, you can go to independent panel review, an even more formal process with three external panel members. They can send back to school for rehearing or quash and force rehearing. If they quash because of a fundamental issue with process fairness or legalilty, it’s incredibly hard for school not to reinstate.
PEX is incredibly time consuming and stressful for everyone and not done lightly.
For now, read guidance carefully. You are entitled to legal representation or family worker support if you have one.

The other pupil goes to the same school and they won’t tell me if they have had any sanctions

The school isn't legally allowed to tell you anything about the other student.
As I posted before, you need to concentrate on your own child and not be concerned about the other child involved as it will do you no good at all.

Of course the school cant discuss whatever sanctions they’ve imposed on the other student! How would you feel if the headteacher discussed your daughter’s permanent exclusion with another parent?

In that case you ask them to see the evidence upon which the decision was made- if they refuse go to the education authority, because not being open about evidence is not acceptable.
The school could refuse to tell you about sanctions on the other child due to confidentiality- but this cannot be true of the evidence.

The panel documentation should have all the evidence. The panel will make their decision based on this evidence

The managed move was only suggested when I went to school to hand him a letter regarding how it had been dealt with and not gained my daughters statement etc or he would never of mentioned it. He said the manage move would be permanent and so if it didn’t work out at the new school and she wasn’t enjoying it as she is settled in the school she is currently in having been there 3 years already, then she wouldn’t be able to go back to that school and I would have to be agreeable to it. I also have to look at the impact this could have on my child as she has a good network of supportive friends , teachers than support her that she feels she can talk to . My daughter lost her grandmother is Jan that she was so close to and for a year seen her suffer with the most horrible type of cancer and she is still grieving and still gets extremely upset understandably as they had a very close bond. Also she has been diagnosed with PMDD and so once a month for the lead upto it can become overwhelmed, overstimulated and the least thing can upset her and 4 days before this incident her head of year had written to say she was referring her to the school nurse for additional support and she is also still on the waiting list for councilling regarding her grandma which apparently there is a big waiting list at school. I am not using this as an excuse to the altercation but adding that this could effect her further to move schools as I say she will lose that support network at such a crucial time going into an important year where she has taken her options surely this is another factor the school should take into account on what is best for my child too

I believe I will get to see the evidence and his reasoning 5 days before but he has admitted to me that he made it based on the other pupils statement and the latter end of the video which shows the end to an altercation (fight)

I was just answering somebody’s question . I am just focussing on my daughter and not the other pupils sanction but the fact that she is not a victim of this as being perceived by the headmaster as she started the fight and if I wrote on here what the girl actually said to my daughter before the physical fight everybody on here would be absolutely disgusted and this I believe is reflected in majority witness statements and no doubt there is no mention of it in the other pupils statement . In my opinion and I would imagine in most peoples mind a child wouldn’t even think to say something about such an act

There should be a question at the PEX about this. Something along the lines of have other students been sanctioned in accordance with the behaviour policy and their specific context. Governors should ask something like that. Ie it would unjust to PEX one and not the other unless there are strong mitigating factors for the other.

PEX can either be for persistent breaches of the behaviour policy or one off serious breaches. This is the latter so a long history of previous behaviour isn’t relevant for the hearing. Focus needs to be on this incident, the immediate lead up to it and aggravating/mitigating factors. If a school is looking to PEX a student, they won’t do it for a one off. They will need to build a comprehensive case around breaches and support given to help. You chat have a PEX for both persistent and one off.

Self defence always has to be proportionate to the attack, e.g. if someone pushes you and you turn round and stab them, that’s clearly going beyond self defence. If the school have gone for PEX, they clearly believe your DD’s response was over the top to the initial attack and it sounds like there is video evidence. Did your DD make an error of judgement here? You need to be honest, if she did go over the top, it’s much better to say and go contrite rather than all guns blazing it e.g. she made a mistake, when defending herself and I’ve enrolled her in self defence classes so she learns proper techniques etc. You then reasonably go through the school’s policies and point out where they weren’t followed. You may find the governors overturn it or you may find they don’t. It is very hard to say here as we don’t know the school, academy trust or governing body. The best way of being listened to is to come across as polite, reasonable and measured and if your DD was partly in the wrong then admit that part of it. (Even if inwardly you feel very differently!)

You can ask the head to explore a managed move, he may have been looking into this anyway behind the scenes as it’s much easier than a PEX and often better for the student. You need to consider whether having a suitable permanent solution is better than protracted appeals and do you trust the head with the care of your DD, ultimately he is responsible for the school and decisions made and if you don’t have confidence in that, then sending her elsewhere may be much better for you and her.

She was just answering my question and yes, the sanction for the other child is private to that yp, but it can be relevant when discussing proportionality. There were other sanctions open to the HT, and they were lot explored straight away. For instance, redirecting off site behavior or a fixed term suspension. Anyway, I find the Coram website super helpful in these instances and potentially find that the PMDD and its role in her behavior worth investigating.

Irrelevant and unhelpful 🙄

The amount of force your dc used is what has lead to this IME, who started it, what was said etc is largely irrelevant if, as it seems, there is video footage of her ‘getting the better’ of someone. Presumably the video shows your dd using more force/aggression than the other and that is pretty difficult to justify.

OP, I think you would get more useful advice if you describe what the video shoes - is the other girl on the ground, is your dc hitting? Pulling hair? Kicking? Shouting?

You make some allegations here about the staff, interference with statements, etc - how do you know?

It doesn’t matter “who started it”. Your daughter assaulted another pupil, and that’s the bit that’s recorded. That’s the evidence. Self defence isn’t “getting the better” of the other person. The other pupil deserved it because she started it just doesn’t wash. I’ve had experience of this as a parent and the police would view this as an assault (from the information you shared). It doesn’t show your daughter in a good light. I understand your distress at a permanent exclusion. Hopefully a less nuclear solution can be found.

So your daughter reacted to something that was actually said to her? With physical violence?

Thank you I really appreciate your response and advice

The girl said what she said and my daughter asked her what she said and she got in her face and said you heard me the first time and pushed her and then my daughter reacted to that but none of that is recorded only the end of the fight but I believe some of the statements mention this but as I say ht took statements after making his decision

The police would not see it as an assault because in criminal law it’s beyond’s reasonable doubt so not enough evidence and i spoke to a solicitor so that the fact she pushed my daughter is common assault and she is entitled to defend herself reasonably. However with schools it’s a civil matter which means it’s all about probabilities and not beyond reasonable doubt

When dh was a governor they did sometimes overturned the exclusion...
But it was always when the parent and child accepted that they had done wrong and wanted to work with the school to make things better for all.
Almost always the child responded well and turned things around.