Permanent exclusion from high school

[Deeg1]

Hi looking for some extra advice my child been in a fight outside of school over the weekend and not in uniform. The latter part of the fight has been videoed which only shows my child getter the better of the other child. The other pupil approached my child first and made horrible threats and then a fight erupted . There is no evidence to show who started it. However the other pupil has done a statement and showed video and my child has been excluded permanently in less than an hour and without my child having their say or a statement. Other witness statements were taken after the decision is made. Some statements have been interfered with and input by a couple of teachers. There was no investigation prior to the decision and still no statement from my child. After sending notification to headmaster to retract as I felt it was procedurally unfair I was told of if I wanted they would retract but only if I was agreeable to a managed permanent transfer to another school. It has been put on record assaulting another pupil with no evidence of how it started. My child is achieving academically well at school and has glowing reports at parents evening. She gets detentions and things but nothing really serious. It’s set at the moment to go before governors to decide but I just feel the school have been so underhanded with the way it has conducted it. Also the other pupil in question is always in isolation and not exactly a role model pupil. Any body else been through anything similar thanks in advance

I agree I had a years long role challenging exclusions and I used to treat the governors hearing as a step towards a possibility of some actual consideration of the facts at IRP. Inevitably the governors sided with the school. Heard some interesting views in my time around procedure and SEND.

I'm a governor and we won't automatically uphold it if they are a good robust school. As someone who sits on these panels we have a very tight brief and that does not include covering the HT arse.

We look at our policy, county policy then national law. Other things don't fall into our remit but we have sympathy, it's outside of scope.

You can get a PX for a one off event. Or it can the last straw in a long story.

I would alway advise a parent to appeal. In our school we pick this apart and have paid for external advice as well to pick us apart

I'd also add that appealing should not revoke the offer to wipe the PX from her record. Because that would be blackmail.

If your certain your child has no SEN a top priority should be avoiding a PRU as well at all costs.

no not regular but does get them as most children in the school does. There isnt more to this as I have given a true account and that’s why I am glad people think this because it makes it clear that my decision to follow this through is the right one . The fact that he has put an assault on another pupil he says is enough but it isn’t an assault but as I say you don’t see that she pushed my daughter first and she defended herself therefore it isn’t an assault on another pupil. He admits that my daughter is doing academically good and is very well behaved and the days are nothing out of the ordinary than any other teenager . He said it’s just based on this fight outside of school

I can't imagine how many kids DC school would be excluding on a weekly basis if they counted fights in non-school uniform at the weekend. They don't even permanently exclude for lunchtime fights (unless someone is badly hurt).

I don't know anything about the process though, I'm just surprised that this one incident is enough.

It doesn’t matter who started it, if your dc was recorded as assaulting the other child however short. How old are they? Might it become a police matter?

That’s so sad to hear. This headteacher has had a lot of official complaints and forgets he works for the school and local authorities and education and he should be accountable when not being fair and following statutory guidelines. I think he was so hasty knows he didn’t do a full investigation hence taking them after his decision. But thinking more of his reputation than thinking of my daughters education as he has told the parents of the other pupil and teachers and even pupils that she will never be coming back to the school that’s why he’s now offering me a permanent management move and he will retract the permanent exclusion so it shows what he says goes as nobody will realise she wasn’t excluded permanently and that an agreement had been done . I mean if he is so sure he has done the right process why is he now offering me this now I have challenged him about the way it’s been dealt with. It does worry me though that governors always with hold it because what the point in having these governing bodies to assist with these situations . I appreciate you insight and views though with working in this department . Thank you

Despite what others have said, I have clerked literally hundreds of Pupil Discipline Committee meetings and advised governors for over 25 years, and I have seen several instances where the governors have overturned the headteaxher’s decision. It is rare, but it DOES happen when procedure hasn't been followed correctly or if the governors have agreed with the parent that permanent exclusion was too severe a sanction. None of us can comment on the appropriateness of the permanent exclusion in this instance because we don't know the full facts, and it appears thst the OP doesnt either.

That’s what I feel but he is saying it is only on the table as he can only revoke the px before it goes to the governors because he has already done it but can do this up until the meeting . He has only told me verbally when I handed him the letter as I sent it by email and by hand letter asking him to retract and giving reasons and then he told me he would do this if I was agreeable and then said it the next day on the phone but I have recorded him saying it incase he denies it so I see it as blackmail too. I think he’s doing it incase there is a chance it got overturned to dangle a carrot but again thinking of himself so nobody will know this and then it’s like what he says goes to everybody he told that she has been px. Also surely if he thinks he did the right thing he should stick to it and not give me now an alternative because I’ve confronted his actions. Do you think I should go through the governors and fight this? Or do you think there is a good chance they will uphold it. Thank you appreciate your input as you are a governor yourself

Hi thank you for your input and advice . Sorry to be ignorant but what goes OP stand for . Thank you

I’m a governor and have been involved in exclusions. Assuming that you’ve given all of the facts, this would not warrant an exclusion in either of the schools where I’ve been a governor.

You will have the opportunity to attend the hearing with governors. The pack given to them should also include pupil voice - if your DD doesn’t have a chance to put her point of view then that alone is grounds for appeal. She should give her side factually, and then talk about how she takes responsibility for her actions, even if it was retaliation to provocation, how she wants to work with school to ensure it doesn’t happen again and how she intends to make the rest of her time there successful.

Exclusions do get overturned. However, I’d think very carefully about whether you want your DD at this school now, given her treatment.

If they haven't heard your DD's side get her to write a statement of exactly what happened and send it to the head teacher. Surely he must look at it before making such a serious decision? Does the video show something really bad like your DD punching the other girl repeatedly or just a struggle with your DD coming out on top? Is she much bigger than the other girl? It sounds very unfair, but there are always two sides...

How old is she? I don't see how they can justify an exclusion if it happened outside of school.

The girl pushed my daughter first so she defended herself and that doesn’t show on the video because the person video only got the latter end which showed my daughter getting the better of the girl. So it’s based on this video and the other girls account . I have a voice note off a girl that she was asked to do a statement and she didn’t know what to write just that there was a fight and a teacher started telling her what to write and in the end said just copy one of the others on the table. Others weee written for them by teachers and wasn’t read back to them or given the chance to write them just told to sign. Others have said they didn’t see who hit who first and have been encouraged to chose one as it’s not good enough in the statements . It’s unbelievable the things I am hearing and the evidence I have got. There has been a lot of peer pressure. I believe he has a lot of influence on the behaviour mentors and helpers . If it wasn’t that the teachers that teach are good at the school I would have moved her a while ago but it’s the headteacher that is ruining the school. So many people have moved children already because they give up in the end. He certainly doesn’t like opinionated people . Don’t get me wrong I like a strict school but as long as procedures are followed and a headmaster can admit to making mistakes

She is 14 and 61/2 stone only a dainty thing and the other girll didn’t have a mark on her . She was defending herself but apparently they can do this even though it was outside of school and not in uniform and I’m presuming it’s because they both go to the same school because I thought exactly the same

I sit on panels for permanent exclusions. I don’t blindly uphold them, in fact I have probably overturned more than I have upheld. If there is no statement from your daughter I would be questioning this during the panel.

Check school behaviour policy, it can include behaviour outside of school

He already made a decision before doing a full investigation and still doesn’t know my daughter’s version of events . She has done a statement which I will provide to the governors. She is 14 61/2 stone and she is smaller than the other girl. It’s just that by the time it is videoed that my daughter is getting the better of the other girl and then she stops fighting her and as soon as she does my daughter stops and they both just walk away. It was literally no more than about 10 to 15 seconds

When there is a governor panel you will also receive a copy of all the documentation the panel will receive

This happened over the weekend?? So in the last 12 hours your child has been involved in a fight that did not happen in school, school has been informed, despite it being the weekend when all staff are at home evidence has been show to staff and a decision made to permanently exclude?? Have school not broken up yet?
The timescale on this is bonkers and makes it very hard to believe.

And more than one teacher has apparently been dragged in on the weekend to help fabricate evidence against your child??
This makes no sense.

Yes this is definitely one of my strong points I feel as he wasn’t interested in her statement and made the desicion without it . When I confronted him about it was told I could send one if I wanted and asked me did I send one and I replied well if you don’t know that tells me if I had you wouldn’t of read it anyway and also said if he did why didn’t he send a teacher to my house for one like he did 2 girls who was off sick to get one so urgently even after making his decision

No the girl only brought it to schools attention on the Monday morning and within 50 mins of school starting she was permanently excluded

I don't like how you've started telling the story with out of school and not in uniform. You can't argue they don't have authority to exclude on some perceived technicality. All you're doing is pointing out this happened on your watch. Thank goodness schools do take their responsibilities seriously and compensate for so much.

Hmm, a quick Google has told me that once it's gone to the governors it can not be revoked if they rule in the HT favour. Sorry I didn't realise that.

There's no guarantee the governors will revoke. You can appeal their desision as well.

If I'm 100% honest the possibility of your dd ending up in a people referral unit would be a serious concern for me. Most of my knowledge is around SEN unfortunately. If there is SEN, EHCP then I see that children can't be placed anywhere and fall out of education all together due to all schools saying they can't meet the needs of the EHCP / SEN but that won't be a issue for you. She will have no unique need to meets in theory can be placed anywhere at no additional cost to the school.

But she would probably need to survive a while in a PRU which sometimes can be very traumatic unfortunately as other pupils will be three for far more serious incidents than a punch up down the park.

Tricky as it's a gamble. I'd ask the ht about what a managed moved and too where would look like and gather as many facts as possible to help you decide. Try to talk to LA and see what the likely placement would be if it's upheld.

PRU can be positive but if your dd is basically a good kind kid it could be a really bad experience.