School said it might be best if DS is put back in nappies

[BlitzMelody]

Adopted DS is 4.5, we adopted him when he was 2, we started trying to potty train him just after he turned 3 before he started nursery. It went wrong, he'd scream, bite, scratch and have full on meltdowns after every accident. Tried again and he was still the same and he refused to sit on the toilet/potty at all. Nursery weren't that supportive and it was clear he was the only one in nappies.

We did have a potty in his room and the front room and we would ask him now and again if he needed to use it or if he wanted to try. That also made him distressed, the nappy was sort of like a safety net. We also got a book and read it to him, told him that he was a big boy and babies need his nappies, did he want to give them to the nappy fairy and get a toy (didn't work, he also wears nappies at night so it was confusing for him).

We tried last June and he had 10 days solid of tears, and accidents and he said he didn't want to use the potty or toilet he wanted a nappy “forever”. We phoned Eric because we were at a loss and they just advised to make sitting on the toilet fun and he'd get there.

We tried for the 4th time in August and this time took all nappies away except for nighttime and that's still where we are at now. He has accidents daily, he's quite content to just sit in it and denies he’s even wet or dirty. We try to promise of a toy and sticker charts but that doesn't work. He does wee on the toilet sometimes if we can tell he needs to go, but never a poo.

School initially would prompt him to go and try on the toilet like they did other children but he is strong willed and would refuse, he has accidents daily. I'm usually called at lunch time to change him as he's wet and then at pick up he usually needs changed again. Day outs are the same. Sometimes it feels deliberate.

Yesterday i thought a poo was coming and put him on the toilet with a bribe of a toy, he stayed there for a while because he wanted a toy. he decided nothing was coming so got off and 2 minutes later it was in his pants. This has happened on other occasions but I thought it was a coincidence

I feel like school think I'm a crap dad, DH works away during the week so it's usually just me going in. This week he is off and went today and he got distressed when DH was leaving so in the end he brought him home. The TA or whoever brought him to DH has said that maybe it's best if hes put back in nappies

He's strong willed in other ways too but this is relentless. Can the school suggest this? I thought by now he'd have got it especially being nearly 5 months into reception

Hi OP, this happened with my DS too - almost exactly the same as you have described, every day he would poo in his pants, deny having done it, say he couldn’t remember when it happened or that he didn’t realise it had happened. For us it continued until he was about 7. He is now 9 and he does now use the toilet, but he still refuses to wipe himself and wants my DH to go to the toilet with him.

we tried all the same things that you have tried, and nothing worked. Out of interest does your DS have any other issues like
extreme fussiness with food? Our DS had this and also would also refuse to eat unless my DH fed him with a spoon. Meal times would take hours and hours.

In the end we came to the conclusion that it was about anxiety and control and his need to be in control. We went through a lot as a family in the first few years of his life, and we think that he struggled with feelings of not being in control.

My DH was incredibly patient with him (way more than I was able to be), and I think it’s just love and patience that has made progress in our case.

I wish you all the very best with this as I know how hard it can be.

can you put him in pull-ups. At least they look like big boy pants, and then introduce normal pants slowly like 1 hour a day and a treat if he keeps them clean for that hour.

Hi @BlitzMelody if I was you I would keep him off school tomorrow & ask for an urgent meeting with the SENCO & either parent liaison rep or safeguarding lead. This will outline how serious you are, they may not be available but someone senior should attend.

express your concerns calmly outlining his additional needs as an previously looked after child & stress that you are concerned that this is going to destroy any self esteem he may have.

Our LO’s often have 0 self esteem & self belief as their preset level. It’s not fair but it’s true. Anything that adds to that can have real consequences.

secondly their relationships and trust with adults who caretake them is precious if they recognise that the teacher cannot meet their basic needs ie calling you to change them how can they trust them to keep them safe? Again this is often how our children see the world.

You and your dh are his world so coming home to you is a gift but as you say isn’t going to help the issue in the long term.

I hear how well settled he is with you and how supportive you are and that will always be the case and will stand him in and you in good stead!

our experience is that as the world gets more challenging the more our LO has struggled and the more support he’s needed so it’s great to get services involved in the early days as it’s much more streamlined then as he grows & potentially his needs grow you don’t have to wait.

If they don’t then you’ve not lost anything you’ve just supported him well when he needed it.

You have all my sympathy and you're definitely not a crap Dad. Toilet training, especially for poo, and especially for boys (in my experience) can be incredibly difficult and there seems to a be a real lack of acknowledgement that some kids take longer (a lot longer) and need a lot of scaffolding to get it.
Things that we found helpful:

• Don't turn it into a battle of wills, you WILL lose (the pooing straight after sitting is an example of this). Suggest and encourage but don't insist or shame.
• Consistency! Consistency is everything. Try to get them to sit at the same times every day and try as much as possible to have meals and drinks at the same time.
• Rule out constipation (actually really common for Western kids to be constipated without obvious symptoms). Get them on Movicol or Osmolax while toilet training.
• Use screen time on the toilet - see comment below about bribes. This will help relax them.
• Absolutely bribe them, but have bribes that increase based on performance. Also the reward has to be straight away, not delayed. We used screen time not sweets (it does depend on what your kid likes). If they agreed to sit they got to watch for 5 minutes while on the toilet. If they did a poo they got 10 more minutes immediately as a reward. If they went to the toilet without being asked and did a poo on their own they got 20 minutes. We were always late to places for a good year because of this but it was worth it.
• try as much as possible to make the bathroom seem like a relaxing place to hang out. Think music, scented candle, and you coming and sitting beside them while they try. Reinforce with positive attention that this is a good thing to do.

Don't be afraid to go back to nappies for a while either. This is a marathon not a sprint - be relaxed, but consistent- you will get there.

I would do what you need to do for now.
My one child was in pull ups for longer then most. For us wee were fine but couldn't poo on toilet. Would have to stand in a very odd position to go. For us it was constipation issue but it took along time to get support. But once we saw a specialist they explained everything and get medication going things started to improve. It still took about a year (age 6) till a poo sat on toilet was common. Child still has a very specific poo routine and will only use specific toilets and this does take some planning as child will withhold if specific toilets aren't available.

All children are different and they all need the time that they need. And that's ok.

I am no expert on adopted children but I wanted to send solidarity - children with a high need for control, whatever the reason, can be bloody difficult to parent! And a child with his background is going to have a very strong need for control. Whether or not there’s anything else going on like neurodiversity. You sound like you’re doing a brilliant job.

As a parent of a child with additional needs, I would say that when things aren’t working and the standard approach isn’t working, it is because at that point, it isn’t right for your child. Whatever the reason. If you think he would do better in pull-ups until the summer, do that.

I would challenge the school on changing him. What would they do if you didn’t work from home? He clearly needs support and support is supposed to be based on need, not diagnosis - and he is clearly showing need. Have you had a conversation with the SENCO?

A family member said the potty training issue was because he doesn't have a mum figure. But we have heard some ridiculous and outdated things from other parents, we got told at his nativity it was a shame his mum couldn't make it when they’d seen both of us do pick up/drop off sometimes together and obviously they'd seen no mum, we've been asked who's really related to DS (they didn't know he was adopted) we just said were both his dad and that was it, and we got asked what we’d do if he likes football which I think was the most outdated and ridiculous comment, they've all been from the same parents that are stood talking to one another but it's sooo different to nursery as there was no waiting around really so we didn't really interact with other parents very often

To the poster asking if he's a fussy eater, he does eat most things but it did used to be a struggle especially dinner times but we have got him involved in picking what he wanted to eat later that day, we give him options and that works (for now) and he does help cook at weekends/when its not a rush which he enjoys because it's also 1:1 time with one of us. He did refuse to eat school lunches so his packed lunch is similar, we give him options and he chooses, same with breakfast. I'm sure some won't agree with that approach but it's not like he's choosing chocolate constantly, its 2-3 choices

Some adopted children are deliberately placed in two-dad families due to lack of trust in birth mum. Meanwhile both my DCs have issues (though DD is the only one with toileting issues) and we are a one mum one dad family.

your son absolutely has the right to be given intimate care in the EYFS which extends to the end of the reception year.

the EYFS Statutory framework clearly sets this out. Also him being adopted will
also make him eligible for Pupil Premium.

ask to speak to the senco. Ask them how they are following the EYFS and applying his pp.

back in nappies for now would be my advice and back to see about an incontinence nurse via your gp.

I

My 6 year-old started kindergarten wearing pull-ups. It wasn't for lack of trying that he wasn't fully potty trained. He still wears them at night, shorty after he turned five it just seemed to click for him and he has had very few day time accidents
In the past year.
So I would suggest using pull-ups or getting some of the large size training underwear if your child doesn't want to wear pull-ups.

Didn't read the whole thread (sorry) but if he is having difficulty releasing into the potty/toilet, put a nappy in the potty and let him sit on that (feels more comfortable and familiar but he is still learning to get himself to a potty on time). Once he has the hang of that it will be much easier.

Removal at birth, two foster placements and then adoption. So at two years old he had three broken attachments. This is catastrophic for a developing brain and I am really surprised he only has toileting issues at the moment. He has experienced deep trauma and possibly in utero trauma plus potential effects of drugs and alcohol as these are common in adopted children which can affect their sensory functions like toileting. Adopters quickly learn that most professionals and schools have absolutely no clue about the effects of early life trauma. Your best bet is to connect with other adopters. As an adopter you will have heard of the body keeps the score and books and concepts like that. May be worth having a read if you haven’t already. When you adopt you become a lifelong career for a special needs child and each stage is different. Please allow him to wear nappies and get him an additional needs plan at school if not an ehcp. The stress, pressure and humiliation he is experiencing is not acceptable. Traumatised kids can operate in fight flight and freeze. Don’t misinterpret his defiance if it is really freeze.

Tbh he will certainly be traumatized from being removed from his birth mother and then his foster mother.. Thats why many women are so opposed to surrogacy - it’s brutal for babies to be removed from their mothers as babies. It causes lasting damage and we don’t do it to puppies or kittens. However I get that adoption is often a case of no choice but that poor wee boy has been removed from two mother figures and like it or not, it’s really not about your feelings here. You keep going on about feeling like a terrible dad and being sensitive to judgement. That’s selfish - Your child needs to feel safe and secure & you’d be wise to seek the support of professionals who deal with children removed at birth.

My theory (from experience) is the why is a sensory thing, he knows he needs (essential prerequisite) and he can communicate that (also essential) - he just can't bear releasing into a toilet or potty. That's why he is relief pooing as soon as he gets a nappy on. I very highly doubt he is trying to manipulate you.

I think you should tell him he can use a nappy whenever he likes, you will line the potty with one (don't give him one to wear, he can just sit on it as nature calls). Eventually you can ease it back to lining with lots of loo roll and then less loo roll etc.

My son took ages as well. He was terrified of the potty and toilet, and wouldn’t sit on them. Really scared and screaming. He wasn’t bothered at all by having wet pants. We had a breakthrough when we went on holiday to France when he was 4, and he thought it was great peeing behind trees with the locals 🙄. When we returned home he still wouldn’t use the potty, but would pee in a bucket in the back garden. Don’t stress and see if he’ll pee at Cheerios in the toilet, or in a bucket outside, etc. Something that he suggests to make him feel in control of the situation?
Incidentally my daughter went from nappies to totally dry in one day at the age of 2, when my mother bought her some lovely knickers and told her she could have them if she stopped using nappies. Shallow reason but it worked with her.

I think this is a little harsh, I don’t think @BlitzMelody anywhere has said anything to deserve this.

i don’t think OP is denying the impact on their ds and will be very aware of what he has been through.

neither have they said they won’t seek support.

I think parents are often their own harshest critics & as an adopter I know I take this to deeper levels, this inner need to prove I am enough, that I can do this… because I’ve chosen and have fought to do this …. then if people see me ‘fail’ or not be good enough … that doesn’t feel good … because it’s not just a test we’re failing , it’s a person …..

Despite feeling like this we’re chasing & getting all the help we can get because our ds needs it, it doesn’t mean we’re not enough even though after all we are only human & certainly not perfect . We are enough because he needs us and we love him.

@BlitzMelody I know I said it before but please consider moving this to the adoption board.

With my eldest DD (18 now), I told her about the potty, said that's where big girls wee, praised her to the high heavens the first time she went on it and that was literally that. She was dry even on a night from that moment, and actually decided to use the toilet within days, rather than the potty. Not one single accident. Ever. Absolute dream.

My second (now 3 year old) DD was like "hahahahahaha! Thought it was gonna be that easy with me did ya, you stupid woman! Hold my drink bih". I was surprised that she cursed at me, but I did indeed hold her vodka and coke.

And so it began. A period of genuine, genuine hell.

As she was 2 - so not at nursery yet - and it was summer, we just did the method of letting her run round with no bottoms or pants on and putting her on the potty as soon as she looked like she was needing it (she would kind of look a bit sheepish and start crossing her legs etc so it was fairly obvious). Pumped her full of liquids to move things along. She really can sink her vodkas.

We would also just sit her on the potty and read books with her. See if the dam of 700 litres of water broke. And then - and I don't even care who disagrees with this - we resorted to chocolate bribes. She doesn't eat chocolate on the reg but some things are serious enough to warrant this positively TERRIBLE parenting action....

I wish I could lie and say any of these actions worked instantly! And that she took to it straight away! She did not. Oh she did not.

She was like a she-devil. She would sit ok on the potty but as soon as wee started coming out (or was just about to) she would SCREAM BLOODY MURDER like she was possessed and thrash about so violently, to the point she'd have to be restrained, so she couldn't fling herself round the room pissing everywhere like a fountain (and to stop her knocking herself out/hurting herself in her whirlwind). I'm surprised the neighbours didn't call the police to be honest, remote tribes in the wilderness must have been able to hear her.

I called the local priest. He said she was not actually possessed and he could not help. We tried to bribe HIM with chocolate. It was a futile effort.

We had to exorcise the demon ourselves.

She'd wait til we left the room for even 10 seconds and go and poo on the floor in the corner, rather than use the potty. This was calculated and I know it was. She knew she held all the cards. She was pooing with malice.

Or she would hold it in ALL day until night time and immediately poo in her nappy pants when she went to bed. Fair. At least I didn't need to get the cat litter scoop out for that.

But slowly....slowly. Things started changing.

Myself, eldest DD and my partner would make a big thing of saying to each other "oh did you just have a wee on the big girl/boy potty? Here you go! Well done!" And consume a Cadburys Button.

She would watch intently. She would covet. She would beg with her eyes for a Button. She never asked. Just with her eyes. She knew it was a step too far to ask for a Button when she had not earned that right. Pooing on the floor does not get you a Button. But she wanted it. She was starting to wonder what to do. Changes were afoot.

"You can have one darling! You just need to have a wee on the big girl potty! And you get TWO for a poo!"

Her resolve was weakening. I could smell it. Although maybe that was just the poo in the corner of the room.

Until one fateful day, no longer could she resist the chocolatey goodness of Cadbury Buttons. Her resolve completely broke. She just could not take it any more.

She purposely, off her own back, went and sat on the potty. No screaming. No thrashing. We didn't have to get the strait jacket out. And she wee'd. She wee'd like she had never wee'd before. And then immediately said "chocolate". She knew. She knew she had won. But so had we.

There were no losers in this situation. Apart from her, as we had actually eaten all the Buttons trying to manipulate her into using the potty.

That was a joke btw, as a lot of things I've said quite obviously are (hopefully). She got her Button. She got MANY Buttons.

We praised her like she had cured world hunger that time and every single time she went on the potty, for so long. Clapping, "well done! What a big girl" etc. Wooping, party poppers, fireworks. We even had a marching band ready for when she finally did a poo. A plane flew over the house with a banner congratulating her when she did it. We made the local news. Don't google me, I don't want fame, I'm too fat to be photographed when I leave the house.

So that was that! Until she started nursery. She will not use the actual toilet at home, and not at nursery. Still only the potty.

She poo'd herself at nursery the other week cos she obviously could not hold it in any longer, like she normally does every day.

But that's the next chapter in the book of Potty Training Being The Most Stressful, Horrendous, Awful Thing In The Existence Of Time.

This was an incredibly long way of saying - I really feel for you, and I stand with you with the strongest feeling of solidarity.

You and DH will get there. You're obviously great fathers and this is just one of many, many, many parenting issues that will have you wondering if you're in a fever dream or you've just had a total breakdown and lost the plot. And maybe we have lost the plot

But the little shits are worth it x

Hi

Have you heard of UpAiry? I'm thinking about getting these for my daughter when we start potty training this month. Nappies they don't "feel" it but with UpAiry they do.

Can I ask how its going? My DS is intermittently using the toilet but still in pull ups and on a long term dis-impaction plan. is this your experience of it? Did it take long before they started recognising and going regularly?

I havent read all the latest posts so someone else might have mentioned this- I am wondering if this could be attachment related in that it is a way for him to check that you are still there for him even when he is in school or there is something about being bring cared for after having an accident that is reassuring to him ? Just relating this to being an adoptee, not sure how many foster placements he had too

You really need to consider this in light of early trauma and adoption. He had 4 homes before the age of 3, at an essential time developmentally he was repeatedly moved from one carer to another which will have an impact on his attachments, need for control, interoception and impulse control. And school is another change.

Id post this over on the adoption boards, lots of very experienced adopters who understand the issues and are very generous in sharing and supporting.

Where I am adopted children are automatically deemed to have additional support needs unless otherwise evidenced. I’m not sure if it’s the same in England but I’d be speaking to the school from the place of he has SEN irrespective of diagnosis.

You aren't available though because you are working and shouldn't really be nipping out to school to change him. Not to mention him sitting in his own mess when it should be dealt with quicker than the time it gets for you to get there and change him.

School are having you on a bit here as they know that you aren't familiar with the support and reasonable adjustments they have to provide and no, a diagnosis or EHCP isn't at all necessary. They need to provide an intimate care plan, this is exactly what they are for.

I'd ask for an urgent meeting with SENCO to discuss an intimate care plan and make it clear that you are trying to work and popping out to change him will no longer be possible.

@BlitzMelody we adopted 3 at ages 16mo, 2 and 4. Have now got grown up young adults and we all survived (just) lol. The first thing I want to say is this will pass, you will get through this and he will come out of nappies, but please take any pressure or stress from yourselves and him. I wish I had not listened to our social workers who plonked three little children on us and the first thing they told us was to get the two eldest dry and nappy free. With everything else that was going on can you imagine. After several weeks of awful nights getting up sometimes 5 or 6 times we decided to give them and us a break. It was the best thing to do, nothing was working, they were dry during the day. The eldest was it seemed deliberately wetting, she would call and cry 15 minutes after being put to bed, she’d just had her last loo after her bath and story etc, I couldn’t fathom it. The middle child seemed to need to be partly damp at all times, she sort of ‘dribbled’ wee when in clean clothes and bedding, we found out later sometimes there’s a comfort in the smell and it makes children who have been neglected feel safe as it’s the smell they’ve had before.
long story short, normal solutions won’t work don’t put too much store in what others tell you, when we potty trained the youngest we did ultra relaxed way of doing it, child -led (they thought but obviously we encouraged) and started little bits at a time, half an hour at weekends then nappy back on and lots of praise, and just built up from there, there’s no judgement on you two your little boy wants to be a baby for longer.
if you go into school at lunch he wants to see you so will obviously keep doing it!
another though sorry for the rambling post, have you tried playing babies with him and doing games around him still being a baby? He will really enjoy that and probably fun for you guys too.
hope this helps I wish I could give you all a hug I know how hard this is xx

I am also an adopter of a child that went into foster care at birth. He came to me at 7 months old. He does have learning disabilities so delayed potty training was expected but the difficulties we experienced have been far more complex than expected. I had more useful support from the Bowel and bladder foundation than ERiC. My son wanted to stay in his nappies and pull ups as it was the only control he felt he had in his life. When I repeatedly tried moving him into pants he would wee and poò around the house - especially on my bed as he was angry with me for taking his safety / comfort away. In the end the advice I received from post adoption and camhs was that he wasn’t emotionally secure enough to toilet train at that time and that the best course of action was to remove all pressure and expectations until he was emotionally secure enough to manage it. I felt that I was a dreadful parent. All the books said he should have been toilet trained by now. Some of my stress transferred to him too which made things harder. When I took the pressure off us both things began to settle. After another couple of years he just suddenly told me he didn’t want nappies anymore. So we stopped. He still regresses with any sign of stress or trauma but is now trained. He was 10 when he chose pants (developmentally about 7).

You have my sympathy as when you are living it it is the most stressful experience, especially with the external judgement. I would get your post adoption team to contact school and explain how trauma can affect toileting. School should be accommodating his needs and not calling you. He just needs a toileting care plan.
You are a good parent and dealing with complications that many others do not understand. Be kind to yourself. Easier said than done I know!

That was quite a while ago. The bladder and bowel team made a huge difference - it took about a year for them to work out what the problem was (really poor interoception) and then a lot of occupational therapy support, and she was back in pants at 7. There are still accidents but I'd say it's 99% there now.