School said it might be best if DS is put back in nappies

[BlitzMelody]

Adopted DS is 4.5, we adopted him when he was 2, we started trying to potty train him just after he turned 3 before he started nursery. It went wrong, he'd scream, bite, scratch and have full on meltdowns after every accident. Tried again and he was still the same and he refused to sit on the toilet/potty at all. Nursery weren't that supportive and it was clear he was the only one in nappies.

We did have a potty in his room and the front room and we would ask him now and again if he needed to use it or if he wanted to try. That also made him distressed, the nappy was sort of like a safety net. We also got a book and read it to him, told him that he was a big boy and babies need his nappies, did he want to give them to the nappy fairy and get a toy (didn't work, he also wears nappies at night so it was confusing for him).

We tried last June and he had 10 days solid of tears, and accidents and he said he didn't want to use the potty or toilet he wanted a nappy “forever”. We phoned Eric because we were at a loss and they just advised to make sitting on the toilet fun and he'd get there.

We tried for the 4th time in August and this time took all nappies away except for nighttime and that's still where we are at now. He has accidents daily, he's quite content to just sit in it and denies he’s even wet or dirty. We try to promise of a toy and sticker charts but that doesn't work. He does wee on the toilet sometimes if we can tell he needs to go, but never a poo.

School initially would prompt him to go and try on the toilet like they did other children but he is strong willed and would refuse, he has accidents daily. I'm usually called at lunch time to change him as he's wet and then at pick up he usually needs changed again. Day outs are the same. Sometimes it feels deliberate.

Yesterday i thought a poo was coming and put him on the toilet with a bribe of a toy, he stayed there for a while because he wanted a toy. he decided nothing was coming so got off and 2 minutes later it was in his pants. This has happened on other occasions but I thought it was a coincidence

I feel like school think I'm a crap dad, DH works away during the week so it's usually just me going in. This week he is off and went today and he got distressed when DH was leaving so in the end he brought him home. The TA or whoever brought him to DH has said that maybe it's best if hes put back in nappies

He's strong willed in other ways too but this is relentless. Can the school suggest this? I thought by now he'd have got it especially being nearly 5 months into reception

@trockodile this is a great paste of what I’d been trying to say in my messages. The poster really needs to calmly set the school straight in what their duties are! Asking parents to come into school for an everyday bodily function like this that for some reason isn’t developing as quickly in some children is just madness! It’s like saying your child is behind in reading, please come into school everyday to help them with it..

Toilet training is so stressful especially with a child with attachment issues (which a lot of adoptive children do).

I was like your DS as a child…..I remember my mum being called in to change me, I remember my brother being called to catch me as I refused to be changed by a teacher (brother was 2 years above me). I was terribly shy and didn’t want to ask to go to the toilet, I was happy to be wet and most days no one would notice. I think by the middle of year 1 I was dry. I think there gets to a time where they realise it’s not cool to be wet, or to be different than the other kids and that will probably the point he will be dry.

I think you need to do what you think is best.
My dd is autistic and after trying to toilet train her several times we just backed right off, it was the summer holidays and she was due to start school in September, we had everything in place with school for her to be in nappies, she then decided to toilet train herself 3 weeks before she started school.

Yes, this, there should be a care plan. Have you spoken to the SENCo?

I also agree re: potential sensory issues. I have a severely disabled son (now an adult) who was out of nappies before his younger sister - it later transpired she's autistic. Even at the age of 30, she still struggles due to sensory issues and experiences urgency because she's not getting any bodily prompts prior.

And you're not failing. You're navigating.

I think you should post on the adoption board pursue the play therapy and read trauma informed parenting stuff (I’m sure you already have).
we have an adopted DN who was removed at birth fostered and adopted at a similar age and he is mostly doing great but just occasionally something flips and he really needs to exert control over his life in any way he can. Play therapy has been excellent for him and his adoptive parents.

He will still be under the local health visiting team as they look after children until 5 years old. I would contact them and they can offer support (Google local health visiting duty phone line) and they can refer you to a specialist. Most areas have a specialist continence nurse.

No no please don't listen to that hatey c*&£p. The reason he's like this is BECAUSE his mum and dad neglected him.

I've worked with a similar child but they were addicted to heroin at birth and cut a long story short, they weaponised toileting, although not to such an extent but still. 2 dads, did an amazing job (much much better than some mum& dad combo) they're OK now a few years later.

Hello
Sorry you are going through this, it sounds really stressful. Your local post adoption support service should be able to help with this as it is so common in adopted children. Some post adoption support teams have specific parts of camhs for adopted children or access to the post adoption psychologist. You could ask for this type of service as i think you need specific advice. There is a book on the coraam baaf website specifically about toileting issues. If you haven't already joined the national association of therapeutic parents, it's worth doing so as they have advice and webinars on issues like this. ERIC are brilliant but adoption-specific advice will help.

As others have said specialist advice is needed. The school staff are unlikely to be experts in this area, and may be giving wrong advice (likewise mumsnet). Did Eric suggest any books or videos that may help? 'Poo goes to pooland' helped our dc.
You have done a wonderful thing adopting and I'm aware from friends it can be very challenging. Hopefully it will get easier and it sounds like your dc is very fortunate to have you as a parent.

He’s trying to tell you something and the harder you push on things that “need” to happen the more difficult it gets to communicate. Let him be in nappies if that’s what he prefers - he’s not bothered about being wet or dirty so you won’t achieve anything that way. Scratching and biting feels like an extreme response so now that he’s older I’ll try and have a chat why does he find it so distressing (you didn’t try to get him to use the potty before he was 3…doesn’t mean someone in his life before you hasn’t tried leaving him quite distressed about it if he couldn’t manage) - but don’t make it a problem solving talk, make it a “I wonder” talk so you can understand him better. I can imagine for a young child who was removed at birth and has been through the foster system A LOT will feel out of his control, not to mention challenges around attachment. I would focus less on where the society tells you he should be and more on where he actually is. If toilet is a no go, use nappies. If he won’t walk try a scooter, trike or even a buggy. Gently encourage but don’t try bribing or coercing (they will all feel like loss of autonomy and will likely make things take longer). He’s still very little and he will get there in his time.

I’m not sure if anyone has suggested a sensory OT assessment. It may be worth looking into. Sensory integration therapy can help him understand his own body better, internal signals and external input. Can also be helpful for children with trauma and some OT’s specifically work around this as well.

No mention of consequences?

We have read poo goes to pooland with him and also another book which I can't remember the name of right now. He's had 2 foster families, the one he was with prior to the adoption he'd only been there for around 6 months so he's had a lot of disruption but he is happy with us and settled. He's really well behaved after all he's been through this is the only ‘issue’.

I think the school call me in and have said they can't change him as they know I WFH so I'm available to them. But that's good to know that they have to change him.

I do worry about things like bullying, I was bullied for other reasons and that stuck with me through school but at the moment hopefully the children don't notice and if he is bullied that the teachers do things now rather than just watching.

I really don't know what to do about tomorrow

Dear Blitz
We had a similar situation in that adopted DS at 18 months. Our healthcare worker was really really good and advised the trauma and transition to us was enough to contend with for our DS. He started nursery at just turned 3 and they were pushing us to take off pull ups and they would sort any accidents. I wasn’t happy with this as it was the impact on DS in front of peers I didn’t want. We started putting pants on over top but no progress. We then went in to lockdown. Great we thought now’s the time but no. DS wouldn’t/ couldn’t manage it. Reception restarted in September and again school nursery not happy. However I was not prepared to change my approach. After a few weeks DS said there were toilets at school. He’d seen other children using them and could he try and not wear pull ups. I said of course with a gentle reminder of what to do when he needed to go. It finally worked and no accidents! We then started to transition at nighttime but again it was at his pace not ours.

Adopted children whatever age have so much autonomy taken away from them and for us it was treated in a way that he needed to keep some element of control over his own body.
He will get there eventually and I would be wary of school mandating anything other than your chosen approach. They should support you especially in light of the adoption and the additional complexities this brings. Only adoptive parents will truly understand you have you do things differently with adopted children.

havent read the full thread but it sounds as though you need to remove all the pressure for a bit, switch to pull ups but get into a routine of sitting on the toilet, every morning, when home from school, before bath then before bed. Make this non negotiable. Depending on what motivates him you could try a sticker chart, even with the pull-ups if he goes on the toilet instead he gets a sticker, we did one where if DD collected a sticker for no accidents for 5 days then she got to pick a prize out of the "surprise box" which was just a cardboard box that I'd covered in sparkly paper and filled with little toys. We really hyped it up and she loved it, it really motivated her. We did 5 days because I knew she was more than capable but she just didn't want to do it, if she wasn't quite at that stage I'd have tried a whole morning/afternon/full day with no accidents instead.

It sounds silly but with our ACs, it was like they didn't fully recognise their own bodily sensations. So they wouldn't be aware they were cold until they were literally shaking and frozen, they wouldn't recognise pain, they wouldn't recognise when they were full from food and would eat until they vomited. This was because in their childhood they were used to not having their needs met so they had almost become numb to their own needs. And, as another adopted posted above, there is a lot of autonomy taken away from ACs and sometimes it can be a control thing.

one of our sons was a toilet refuser! It is not easy and you are NOT a crap dad. What finally got things on track was a big jar of froot loops in the bathroom and his dad would anounce that he had to pee and was going to see how many fruit loops he could sink. Son started enjoying running in and counting the fruitloops, then wanted to sink them so started yelling FROOTLOOPS every time he needed to pee.. poo...well that took a bit longer , but it happened. Happy to say, he is in his 30s with a little boy, that learned the potty with frootloops. You will get there.

@BlitzMelody if you think your child needs you there and it will help emotionally then go in, but you turning up every day to change him is slowly going to make him seem even more different from his peers vs staff just quickly supporting him and allowing him to move on with his day (be this toileting or any other issues a child may have in school hours).

Unless you can get to the school reception in about 1-2 minutes then this delay of you attending to accidents is further impacting on what a normal day of school should look like to him, I definitely don’t see this as a sensible position you should maintain for too much longer, from all the research I have done some kids for whatever reason can still struggle with this quite persistently until nearer 9/10 or worst case even older so it’s best to work with the school so they can manage the problem themselves in school hours, make sure you write to them armed with facts about how they should support you regardless of any diagnosed medical condition or SEN.

I have two kids and the first (boy) was relatively straight forward at potty training, had a star chart, mostly dry withing two weeks. My daughter was a nightmare. Took five months of taking her to the toilet every hour for her to FINALLY say 'mum I need a wee.' She is so incredibly stubborn. The only thing that would get her to do a wee/poo on the loo was choc buttons. I am ashamed to say I was giving her choc buttons before breakfast, it was the only thing that worked.
A friend of mine has a boy, just turned 5 who only wants to poo im a nappy. She's seen a specialist for a while and I think he is doing quite well now, the main breakthrough was putting pull up nappies next to the toilet and say if you want to poo in a nappy put it on yourself. He couldnt be bothered with it so tends to use the loo.
I think specialist help would be the way forward, not sure id stop as that could be confusing for the child next time you try.
Good luck x

Do you have a Health Visitor? If so, consider contacting them for advice. Your DS will grow out of it at some point, but I can understand it’s difficult for you all right now. At school -perhaps ask to see the Head to let them know you’re not happy with how they are managing the situation.

I doubt the school are judging you. Do they know DS is adopted?

Most children who are not toilet trained by reception due to "lazy parenting" have usually got it cracked by Christmas. Most children who are not toilet trained by around this time of year in reception usually have something else going on and need more specialist help.

There does come a time where continuing with allowing the child to publicly soil/ wet themselves (ie other children become aware of them doing it and notice they need changing) becomes more damaging then going back to nappies for a few weeks. If toileting at school is causing your DS distress in any way then a few weeks in nappies can be helpful for them to reset toileting at school. Has the school asked about him having an intimate care plan? Have they discussed what strategies they may use with regards to getting out of nappies at school. It may be that the school have decided to go for nappies and requested advice from other services. If he is withholding poo he can make himself very constipated which can take months and months to clear.

The school should be seeking advice from the school nurse, Eric and also adoption services for advice. I would also advise you speak to the GP and post adoption support and Eric and see if they have any advice regarding toilet training adopted children. Children who are adopted come with all sorts of trauma. Trauma can manifest in toileting problems.

The school should not be requesting you go in to change DS. Read the Supporting pupils at schools with medical conditions statutory guidance. This is underpinned by section 100 of the Children and Families Act 2014. It does not matter DS doesn’t have a diagnosis or an EHCP.

Although you should request an EHCNA. On their website, ISPEA has a model letter you can use.

Request a meeting with the school’s SENCO. Follow verbs, conversations up with emails to create a paper trail. Does DS have an intimate care plan?

In some areas, you can self refer to the continence service.

I would put DS back in nappies for now. He is too distressed.

I have two adopted DD's and have fostered.

Strip it right back. Put him back in nappies. He is not ready. Adopted kids have so much going on in their little brains.

Leave it until the Easter holidays and try again when you are at home. If that doesn't work put it off until Summer. If that still doesn't work start talking to your GP and health visitor (if he is still under the HV - if not ask for him to be referred to the hospital paediatric continence team).

He is a child that has experienced major trauma - don't try to be led by what his peers are doing. They haven't got all that baggage.

Good luck.

Ask school to refer to the school nurse. School nurse will meet with you and come up with a support plan. They can also draw up an agreement between you and the school so that school can change him.

Oh - and legally he doesnt have to be in school until he is 5 so if you feel he would be better off at home some days just keep him home.

Could it be possible he also finds the potty uncomfortable? My 4.5 year old has cerebral palsy so we are also struggling with potty training too. He cried every time we sat him on a potty as I think it was hurting him so we got him a toilet seat that has steps and handles. It means he can sit comfortably and he's fully supported. Don't ever think you're a crap Dad, what you've done is wonderful and coming here for advice just shows how much you love your little boy.