School said it might be best if DS is put back in nappies

[BlitzMelody]

Adopted DS is 4.5, we adopted him when he was 2, we started trying to potty train him just after he turned 3 before he started nursery. It went wrong, he'd scream, bite, scratch and have full on meltdowns after every accident. Tried again and he was still the same and he refused to sit on the toilet/potty at all. Nursery weren't that supportive and it was clear he was the only one in nappies.

We did have a potty in his room and the front room and we would ask him now and again if he needed to use it or if he wanted to try. That also made him distressed, the nappy was sort of like a safety net. We also got a book and read it to him, told him that he was a big boy and babies need his nappies, did he want to give them to the nappy fairy and get a toy (didn't work, he also wears nappies at night so it was confusing for him).

We tried last June and he had 10 days solid of tears, and accidents and he said he didn't want to use the potty or toilet he wanted a nappy “forever”. We phoned Eric because we were at a loss and they just advised to make sitting on the toilet fun and he'd get there.

We tried for the 4th time in August and this time took all nappies away except for nighttime and that's still where we are at now. He has accidents daily, he's quite content to just sit in it and denies he’s even wet or dirty. We try to promise of a toy and sticker charts but that doesn't work. He does wee on the toilet sometimes if we can tell he needs to go, but never a poo.

School initially would prompt him to go and try on the toilet like they did other children but he is strong willed and would refuse, he has accidents daily. I'm usually called at lunch time to change him as he's wet and then at pick up he usually needs changed again. Day outs are the same. Sometimes it feels deliberate.

Yesterday i thought a poo was coming and put him on the toilet with a bribe of a toy, he stayed there for a while because he wanted a toy. he decided nothing was coming so got off and 2 minutes later it was in his pants. This has happened on other occasions but I thought it was a coincidence

I feel like school think I'm a crap dad, DH works away during the week so it's usually just me going in. This week he is off and went today and he got distressed when DH was leaving so in the end he brought him home. The TA or whoever brought him to DH has said that maybe it's best if hes put back in nappies

He's strong willed in other ways too but this is relentless. Can the school suggest this? I thought by now he'd have got it especially being nearly 5 months into reception

Hi OP, I haven't read all posts so apologies if this has been suggested but it might be worth looking into PDA. I'm not an expert at all, but I have worked with several children with PDA and as well as not coping well with demands from others, some children with PDA don't cope well with demands from their own bodies (such as the need to go to the toilet, to go to sleep when tired, etc.).
Even if PDA doesn't match your son, some of the strategies / language suggested for potty training children with PDA might be useful. All the best x

Adoptive mum here. It sounds like there are a few things going on. School calling you to change him means he will see you during the day - hard to break that behaviour if it is a pattern. Is there an adjustment school can put in so that it is not you who has to change him?

My daughter had long-term issues with pooing in the toilet, it took a while but it is now resolved aged 7. Despite excellent support from ERIC, it basically just took time. I think it was about control, children can control when/where they go to the toilet and if/when they sleep or not. It sounds as though he has a good awareness of needing to go, in which case asking for a pull up at this point might be an option, rather than reverting to pull ups full time. From there, a gradual retreat from pull ups can start.

Good luck.

I’m sorry but he is capable of using the toilet- as evidenced by using the loo at panto- and he is manipulating you because he knows he can. You need to be the adult setting boundaries. He needs to respect you. Don’t plead or speak in sing song voices. Be direct and firm about what you want expect. If he doesn’t actually produce the poo in the toilet then no reward.does he get treats / sweets every day?

FWIW I think you have done the right thing, although I might have tried pull ups as a compromise.

I’d suggest contacting the post adoption support team and the health visitor and try and get some support from both angles, but in the meantime I’d put him back in nappies or pull ups and just completely not mention it.

If you think there’s a separation element to it, something that worked for us was drawing a heart inside each of our wrists in sharpie and then DH and I used to “charge it up” with kissed before school.

Why shouldnt they suggest it? The child is clearly NOT potty trained. Hes sitting in his own pee and poo and parents having to go in and change him! Of course he should be in nappies 🙄

I agree with other posters, it seems like you need to enlist specialist help. A lot of adopted children have some form of trauma (my oldest is adopted and had quite a tough time about 10 years old) and if he has been removed at birth their could (but not always obviously) been alcohol or substance abuse during pregnancy. If you have an adoption support worker maybe speak to them?

Hi, my daughter is 11. She was removed at birth and we adopted her at 6 months. She did come out of nappies ok nut is still in them at night. Despite being removed at birth she has significant trauma due to experiences in the womb.

I think going back into nappies is a good idea for now, to break the cycle you are in. Are there any other ways in which your son is asking for younger needs to be met? Did you do the brick wall as part of your training think about what else he may need, like a bottle, dummy, rocking and nursery rhyme games. I do think school should be supporting more. We gave our daughters primary school a lot of grace, small village school she was the only adopted child and the school had no idea about how to help us.

Have you contacted post adoption team? We have found them really helpful. I am aware that is not the case for everyone but we have made good use of the support, post adoption fund and our LA have a regularly meeting with CAHMS where children can be discussed, as a result we were given support from CAHMS without the usual GP referral and long waits.

I would also wonder if your son has a sensory need the poo meets or if he has poor introception and is unaware he needs to go. I would ask post adoption for a referral to adoption support fund, if you get in quickly you may be able to use this year's budget still and have a full amount for next year (not sure if adoption support fund will keep going next year, it is always something the government may stop). I would suggest Occupational therapy with someone trained in sensory integration therapy could be helpful (without knowing anything else)

If you look at Beacon House, they have some great resources around trauma on their website too.

I have found the virtual school helpful too, they have also helped us to understand what school should be doing and school should be tapping into the resources there.

It could of course be flooding from constipation. Our daughter used to have this and she wouldn't go, despite writhing on the floor crying in pain because having a poo hist she wouldn't. She does the same if she has a tummy bug - she just won't be sick her will power is extraordinary.

It is hard parenting an adopted child, it is a more intense experience of parenting because of the harm the child has been exposed too - we were told that on training but it only really sank in for me when she turned 10 and I realised some of the challenges she has may change, reduce but many things others take for granted will be harder for her.

I used to work away a lot, I had to change my work as she couldn't cope with it. Even now if I work out of the home, her anxiety behaviours show up and we have to parent her like a much younger child, closer to 5.

I would also suggest taking to the GP and requesting a referral to the paediatric team, there could be a medical reason for this which should also be ruled out.

You will get there but it may be 2 steps forward and 3 steps back for a while.

You have said in a post that this is the only issue, but I think that this is also an issue:

He's similar in other ways like walking if he doesn't want to walk, he doesn't. Even if it's somewhere fun like the park. He sits down and refuses to walk but it's not like he's upset because he's quite happy to sit on the floor, it's not like he's having a tantrum or anything. It's sort of a game of who'll give in first and it's rarely him. But then he'll be running about the park happily

As a parent you need to be in charge, the above will make your dc feel as though they are in charge, as you give in first, and this will be very distressing for them even if they don't indicate this in an obvious way in their behaviour or words.

I think that behaviour is communication and it sounds as though your dc is expressing upset by his need to be in control. Wetting himself might have become another control situation.

You need to parent and that means being in charge and teaching your dc skills, setting out expectations as well as providing significant support to enable them to do this, and in your case also helping your dc with previous trauma.

I think that as a pp said, your dc has suffered deep trauma in his early life, is this something you talk about with him? In an ideal world you would be getting help with this, but there seems to be a shortage of professionals who can help, unfortunately, hence the long wait, and so parents very often have to do it themselves, and they need to believe that they can do it.

You have to balance the fact that your dc needs a lot of help with trauma, with learning social rules and that means tackling some of this "strong will" business by being more in control yourself, being very supportive.

So, in relation to toilet issues and other issues, I think you need to firstly set out expectations and then give him support and understanding in following expectations. I say this as the doctor has said that there are not medical issues, and you have indicated that it might be a control situation. It would probably talk to him more about wetting himself at school and explain why it isn't a good idea, so explain how you want to help him with this to help him do what he needs to do at school, that you want him to be dry at school for his benefit, as it is expected.

I think that from this point on, how you and he talks about his feelings, about the world around him, how well he can identify his thoughts and feelings, is really key.

I think that he needs to feel he can talk openly about how he feels about everything, positive and negative, including about you and DH which may well be positive sometimes and not so positive at other times. It is what it is. I used to say to my dc about awful traumatic things "I can't change it or make it go away, but I can make it better". That was mainly by maintaining the connection, talking and helping them process things, letting them know that I had their back, and that I loved them unconditionally etc etc.

Schools and school parents can be a quagmire for anyone to navigate, so I think expect questions and don't be put off by them, all parents face problems of one kind or another and most parents feel at one point or another they are being judged.

However, this said, there is research indicating problems around raising children without mothers, or by single sex couples, as well as away from biological family, it is probably worth being aware of what all the research says so that you can try to make better the known problem areas for your dc as best you can over the years.

That sounds a good idea thank you, I do plan on trying to transition him to pull ups in a few weeks when it's half term, I was thinking about leaving a teddy with a pull up out so he could put it on the teddy to see it wouldn't hurt him and he's safe etc. DH isn't going away now until next month so that'll help because I think he must miss him more than he can tell us even though he does call at bedtime everyday

I think with him using the toilet at the panto was likely he didn't want to miss any of it as changing him would've taken longer than him simply using the toilet but he was proud of himself and shouted quite loudly that he'd done a wee 🙈

I will talk to the senco next week about a changing plan as suggested, I do worry though about how he'll react when he realises neither of us will go to him during school as it has been since September that we have, it's just how he'll process it in his mind and I wouldn't want his day to be ruined and him worrying. He did say this morning that he wasn't in trouble anymore and we had to reassure him he was never in trouble but then I felt guilty if he thought the pants were a punishment

Why do they remove babies at birth, then move them around for ages instead of adopting them straight away? I will never understand why they do this. So he had no loving figure in his life until 2. Or he did,then had to be removed from them and everything he knew. My heart breaks for him.

Seems like you are doing the same thing over again and it's just distressing for you and him. I'd put him in pull ups again.

All this about him not having a Mother. Every person in this world has a Mother, it's the person that gave birth to you. The whole thing about being adopted is that there will be major attachment trauma, even if your adopted parents are the nicest people in the world. There will always be a big hole that no one can fill. It will shape his personality and is the reason behind a lot of his behaviours. You need to acknowledge this. His Mother can't be the elephant in the room that no one mentions. The whole point of your existence now is to love this child and make him feel safe. He doesn't exist to validate you in any way shape or form. What are you going to say when he wants to trace his mother? ' no you don't have a mother, and the fact you are bringing this up is very invalidating for us"? I am not saying this because you are gay, straight adopters need to accept this too (although men seem to want constant validation).

Adoptees campaigned very hard for years to have their trauma acknowledged. Let's not set us back 100 years.

I wonder if is likely to be an emotional issue - can you get advice from your CAMHS or adoption support and seek support through ASF?

* It's sort of a game of who'll give in first and it's rarely him. - it must NEVER be him!*

I recognize that this child might have some traumas behind him, but this is not a good reason to avoid strong boundaries. It is all the more reason to keep these stronger. He desperately needs to know who is in charge, who sets the boundaries that keep him safe. Having no boundaries is very seductive to a child but ultimately engenders fear - "if the grown-ups, who are all there is between me and the dangers of the world, can be manipulated by me, where is my safety net?"

I have an adopted child. She has struggled and still does struggle with seperation anxiety. Leading up to any kind of seperation is awful. Huge meltdowns and awful aggression etc. we now know why this is. We try to limit seperation as much as possible and when it is necessary we do a huge amount to prepare her.

She absolutely undoubtedly wouldn’t cope if one of us went away for work regularly. Her little body goes into immediate panic and stress that we are not coming back. We have worked closely with a child psychologist.

This is screaming to me that she is scared of your DH not returning and having him as a possibility to come when he’s wet or dirty is meaning he’s doing it regularly.

Maybe I’m wrong.

I would strongly recommend a child psychologist

I havent read the whole thread but my son was not fully toilet trained until he was 7. He is not adopted (although I am!)

we tried everything and even though we were told for a long time that is was not physical, it turned out has slightly hypermobile and had poor core muscle tone. He had hydrotherapy and physiotherapy (and also occupation therapy for other bits related to his hypermobility) he very quickly improved with his toilet training so think the physio helped with his internal muscles. He alo had a wobl watch which was set to vibrate and remind him to go try for the toilet at set times.

Retired teacher here.
I agree with your post, I suspect there is something in his background, life experience that is impinging on this whole traumatic change from nappies to toilet.
You really need help and experts involved.

You sound like such lovely parents, I hope you manage to crack this soon.

It's clearly trauma induced.
Easy to say, but try not to assume judgement, or let the prospect of it get to you, your son has had to overcome some difficulties and I'd therefore take the pressure off in the way you se fit.

Good advice about pull ups but this is not being done ' As a result of adoption but as a way forward from where you are now.

Have you thought about deferral? You can start him in reception when he’s 5. Summer born boys in particular can struggle with school and although the impact is bigger in the early years, a gap perists throughout their school experience. If he might have SEN or other challenges due to difficult start in life this might be really beneficial.

This will seem quite basic compared to the excellent advice you have already had. But here it is anyway: my eldest DS was late to potty train, nothing we tried seemed to work. Until a friend of his came over for the day, I saw him having a good stare while she used the toilet and that seemed to unlock things for him.

Sounds really tough. Sorry youre going through this. It honestly seems like you need to stop thinking about what he "should" be able to do and think about what he needs.

daily accidents resulting in sitting in his own wet and soiled clothing will be so humiliating and invite bullying. Discreet older child nappy pants are surely kinder and healthier thing here.

None of this is your fault and you are not a crap dad. You're doing your best with the knowledge you have.

We've tried bribes but he seems to try and outsmart us by sitting on the toilet and not doing anything but then expecting a toy/chocolate because he's sat

Perhaps tell him there is a change of terms and from now the chocolate or toy a reward for doing the poo in the toilet, not just sitting there?! He sounds very smart with all the negotiation, which is good thing in many ways!

I do worry though about how he'll react when he realises neither of us will go to him during school as it has been since September that we have, it's just how he'll process it in his mind and I wouldn't want his day to be ruined

I think his is just a matter of talking it over with him frequently, making sure he knows it isn't a punishment, saying that more than once to him

You mentioned how choices with food has worked well - is it possible to try to facture in choices in relation to this? Like - we want you to poo in the toilet but you can choose whether you want chocolate or a toy afterwards, or we want you to only do wees and poos in the toilets but you can choose to wear either pants or nappies as long as you don't go to the toilet in them. These are probably not great ideas as I am tired, you might think of better ones.

I think that always asking about feelings around this (and everything) is good - asking how he feels when he goes to the toilet, when he doesn't, when he has to get changed. Talking about feelings can help him process things and widen his tolerance for negative feelings.

In relation to anything you sense he feels trauma about, getting him to draw might also help. Drawing regularly has many, many benefits generally - to do with developing fine motor skills, self expression, increasing creativity - and what he draws will also help you understand what is going on for him. You could ask him to draw how he feels about the toilet issue, it might be illuminating, you never know!

I'm wondering what 'strong willed' means also how the rest of his development is.
There wouldn't be a diagnosis that young necessarily it's worth keeping an open mind even if he's cognitively able there could be other challenges. Definitely get health advice and you have to be proactive with professionals for assessments etc. Try to get holistic oversight of his needs. School nurse might advise.

Sounds tricky. To help with potty training I bought a bag of cheap toys etc and my children could put their hand in the bag and pull out something if they went to toilet. Maybe try one of those dots in the toilet snd a game he has to hit the dot when he aims and if successful he gets a treat

You can also get little back squares which produce pictures of dinosaurs etc when weed on. Them plus Haribos and Chocolate helped a lot. Nothing wrong with pull ups for as long as necessary as long as one of you are able to go in and change etc if requested. .Apparently pretty common nowadays so school may help. He’ll get there eventually even if it takes a very long time. When he’s 19 you’ll look back at this time and think life was so much easier when that’s all we had to worry about.