School said it might be best if DS is put back in nappies

[BlitzMelody]

Adopted DS is 4.5, we adopted him when he was 2, we started trying to potty train him just after he turned 3 before he started nursery. It went wrong, he'd scream, bite, scratch and have full on meltdowns after every accident. Tried again and he was still the same and he refused to sit on the toilet/potty at all. Nursery weren't that supportive and it was clear he was the only one in nappies.

We did have a potty in his room and the front room and we would ask him now and again if he needed to use it or if he wanted to try. That also made him distressed, the nappy was sort of like a safety net. We also got a book and read it to him, told him that he was a big boy and babies need his nappies, did he want to give them to the nappy fairy and get a toy (didn't work, he also wears nappies at night so it was confusing for him).

We tried last June and he had 10 days solid of tears, and accidents and he said he didn't want to use the potty or toilet he wanted a nappy “forever”. We phoned Eric because we were at a loss and they just advised to make sitting on the toilet fun and he'd get there.

We tried for the 4th time in August and this time took all nappies away except for nighttime and that's still where we are at now. He has accidents daily, he's quite content to just sit in it and denies he’s even wet or dirty. We try to promise of a toy and sticker charts but that doesn't work. He does wee on the toilet sometimes if we can tell he needs to go, but never a poo.

School initially would prompt him to go and try on the toilet like they did other children but he is strong willed and would refuse, he has accidents daily. I'm usually called at lunch time to change him as he's wet and then at pick up he usually needs changed again. Day outs are the same. Sometimes it feels deliberate.

Yesterday i thought a poo was coming and put him on the toilet with a bribe of a toy, he stayed there for a while because he wanted a toy. he decided nothing was coming so got off and 2 minutes later it was in his pants. This has happened on other occasions but I thought it was a coincidence

I feel like school think I'm a crap dad, DH works away during the week so it's usually just me going in. This week he is off and went today and he got distressed when DH was leaving so in the end he brought him home. The TA or whoever brought him to DH has said that maybe it's best if hes put back in nappies

He's strong willed in other ways too but this is relentless. Can the school suggest this? I thought by now he'd have got it especially being nearly 5 months into reception

My child is ND so a bit different, but he was very attached to nappies going into primary. What we did was, when he needed the toilet we got him in a nappy, sat him on the toilet and he did his business like that. Then we made a hole in the nappies in advance that progressively got bigger over time. Eventually just the waistband was left and that was discarded in a week.

Hope this is helpful.

I second going to GP and/or health visitor and asking for a referral to the continence team.

ERIC should be more helpful really normally they're amazing especially with constipation issues.
How's his comprehension in general? How come he doesn't want to be like other big boys etc what does he say his issue is with the toilets? What do you think 🤔
Could you make him help clean himself up? Or does it not bother him.

I don't know if I'd go back to pull ups but I understand how hard this is.

Have you tried putting him in terry nappies like in the 70s? I think part of the problem is that modern nappies are quite comfortable and don't feel wet like the old Terry towelling ones.

FWIW, my DS only became dry at 13 and is still in nappies at night. It's very hard, and I don't know what the answer is.

His adoption is very relevant, adopted children often have complexities that make toilet training difficult. Did you speak to Eric and explain his adoption? Their advice to me was pretty trauma informed.

In the meantime I’d accept that he’s not ready and put him in pull ups, it’s not pleasant being wet and soiled in school.

I don’t think this is fair to the school. He needs to be in pull ups.

Anybody judging you can get to fuck!!

it doesn’t sound like he has an autism diagnosis?

I wonder whether you should maybe seek one? Ask the school to assess him? All autistic kids present differently so there’s no harm in seeing?

my autistic dd learned just before she turned 6

you sound like a lovely dad, I completely get feeling judged but the school would have dealt with much worse scenarios and with parents who don’t care as much as you do

best of luck xx

I think if he is having repeated accidents throughout the day, then it's a sensible suggestion from the school-it doesn't sound like he's ready.

If he's not yet 5, I would request support from the HV (often they will refer you onto a specialist). The school nursing team don't get uncles in my LA until a child turns 5.

You sound such a lovely Dad.
Potty training is the absolute pits, not an easy process. Your little one has lots going on, it sounds completely reasonable that it’s taking a bit more time to crack it.

Pull ups and bribery sound like a sensible tactic. (And wine for the dads)

His adoption is very relevant, even though he was removed at birth. I have guardianship of my sister and have done since she was 4.5, I fostered her on and off from when she was 2 until she was finally removed from our mum and she is soooo stubborn! I'm raising her as my own along with my birth children and I do see the difference in terms of how she behaves and interacts with the world.
That being said, boys often are harder to potty train than girls- I would continue with medical advice, ask for further referrals if possible rather than go back to nappies.
You sound like a great dad.

Pants underneath the pull ups will still give him a wet sensation so maybe try that? Also, have you tried the things in the toilet bowl to target wee on, to make it fun?

Agree with this. What a lot he must have been through compared to other children in his class, most of whom will have had a difficult time potty training even with an easier infancy behind them. Hes also transitioned to school relatively recently, another big change.

I would put the nappies on to make his life at school easier (and as pp said to avoid him being in wet/dirty clothes) and I would also encourage some independence by getting him involved in his own toileting, so hand him his own fresh nappy and a wipe, he removes full nappy, puts in a bag etc (not for poo). And always do this in a bathroom/toilet.

Then I'd focus on encouraging him settling and being happy at school, organising playdates and building his and your community. Maybe he will potty train himself due to peer pressure. If he doesnt, revisit over the summer holidays.

Consider speaking to whoever you feel is judging you to explain how hard you are trying, that he has had a different start than most other kids, you are doing your best. This isn't because they deserve an explanation but because it might make you feel better and more relaxed about things yourself if you are understood.

You sound lovely, hes a lucky boy and one day this will all fall into place.

I am wondering if there is a sensory element to this , either related to interoception and not being aware of needing the toilet until it is already happening and combined with something about the sensation of being unclothed and sitting on cold plastic ? Or getting some positive sensory feedback from sitting in soiled pants / nappies. It might be worth seeing if you can obtain a referral to an occupational therapist that specialises in sensory issues and / or autism

This was my life 3 months ago. My DS has just turned 5 and we have been on the potty battle since he was 2.5. starting/stopping/waiting for the right time. He holds it in, soils himself daily and has had the worst nappy rash. He is currently in pull ups. I battled with GPs and a paediatrician about this as there was clearly something not right. The paediatrician told me to 'just force him'. how do you even do that. I kept going back to docs and to shut me up they gave me a prescription for movicol and dulcolax with no clear instruction apart from what is on the box to use it, to suit him. Every time i went to docs they told me his tummy was soft and bowels seemed fine. Finally after him starting to become very poorly end of last year they referred him to the specialist bowel and bladder dept at hospital. in for an xray and it turns out his bowel is severely impacted, so much so the bowel and bladder have lost most sensation so he couldn't decipher if he needed to go or not. Him ignoring me and not wanting to go were all distraction techniques for the pain he was in but could not articulate at the time. He has now been on a dis-impaction plan which is very intense and unpleasant. 6 weeks in and he is starting to get sensations. this is not the end of the road and he requires an intense toileting programme with hospital which is basically rehab for the bowels. My point is, do not let GPs fob you off. The nurse who comes to see us for DS said GPs know very little about fecal impaction in children and it can cause major problems, as I have now discovered. The consultant he is now under is amazing. She explained the extent of the distention in his bowels means its been there in many different spots for quite some time.

I 100% agree with previous posters and wanted to come on to say what a lovely family you are and you are not a crap dad! You obviously care so much and are doing your best. I would definitely get some pull ups, maybe let your son choose which ones? There are some different ones with characters on etc and that kind of thing can be the start of a positive journey together? And just try to remove the stress and pressure from the situation. Start over and he honestly will get there, it just sounds like now isn’t his time, so best to make things as happy and positive as possible so you can start to take steps towards toilet training together.
my son HATED the potty and did much better on a little seat on the toilet, to be fair potties look so uncomfortable I’m not surprised! Keep going, you’re doing brilliantly!

@BlitzMelody Someone might have already said this, but it's quite common for kids with ADHD (and ASD) to have toileting issues when they're very young. My child with ADHD had issues.
Can I just say, how wonderful it is that you've adopted. What a lucky little lad.

Bladder and bowel control is tricky-having worked as a nanny, in nurseries, and latterly as a home care assistant, it is something many people will have trouble with.

I was also a child who had wee accidents most of the way through primary school. Looking back I had picked up the idea that going to the toilet was shameful and the school toilets had no privacy, the doors never locked and children would look under the door. I frequently had accidents on the way home from school, and i felt so ashamed and would try to hide it. As an adult it was discovered that i had a urachal remnant during a scan for something else! https://urology.ucsf.edu/patient-info/children/urachal-abnormalities (not suggesting this is the case for your DS, just that it can be unexplained)

No child wants to be wet, so make sure you remove any shame or blame, if he is happy to have pull ups, then give them to him. Make it easy for him to change them both at school and at home. Try and help him retain his dignity in front of his school group. Tell your ds that it is not his fault, some people just take longer than others because of the way their body works. Suggest you try again in the holidays, or whenever he feels ready. Tell him that he is fantastic, everyone is different and even some grown ups have trouble and need some help-you can show him the incontinence products in the supermarket designed for adults! See what happens and keep talking to the medical people if you think it necessary.

Incidentally i have looked after both my late mum and my dad as they have got older. Mum needed a catheter and a stoma bag which i was frequently the one to change them. My dad currently needs my help with getting to the loo and cleaning him up! They both felt guilty at how they dealt with my wetting-they weren’t nasty but i knew that it was shameful and gave my mum extra washing-i only had one school skirt, if it got wet I knew how much trouble i had caused.

I have learned to be extremely pragmatic with it all-bladder control is not neither an intelligence or a moral issue! It also does not mean that the parents are at fault! Good luck!

Have you previously potty trained any other children? Are you following any sort of method? It sort of sounds like you are just winging it and doing everything they advise you not to- bribing, pressure, getting into battles of will.

I've always had success with the oh crap method- no pants or trousers, stay in one room and you watch them. You learn their cues- rather than expecting them to know them. Potty available. However given your DS is older I'd go straight to a toilet- the potty is better left behind after all the previous issues with it.

Doe he see either of you use the toilet? I can imagine adopting a toddler is slightly different than having a baby with things like that. Less no other choice/ can't put them down situations

I did put my DC back into pull-ups in reception, we had the same problem. Ask for a referral to your bladder and bowel team, and to an occupational therapist. It was definitely the right move for our DC who was by then associating any attempt to use the toilet with a huge amount of stress and anxiety, so going back to pull-ups alongside specialist support was the right move.

You're not the only parent dealing with this, don't be afraid to ask for as much specialist help as you can possibly get.

I don’t have any advice about toilet training because I’ve not got to this point of parenting yet, but fuck feeling judged. You are doing the best for your baby everyday, carry on doing that. Ignore anybody that judges you, they aren’t worth anything to you.

I think you need specialist help but also potty training is a nightmare. Initially I was very anti bribing my children and I was all high and mighty - until potty training. I was in a total mess and my mum just told me to bribe them and then said she bribed all six of us and that made me feel better.

I don't have an adopted child but I do have a late diagnosed ND teenager. We pushed and pushed to meet goals and targets when she was younger and stressed when she still used a buggy at 6 and wouldn't eat what normal kids would eat and hated all the activities other kids liked etc.. I still stress myself that she can't seem to do what other 15 year olds do but she has certainly got out of the buggy!

I'd put him back in nappies and take the pressure off for a year. If this is just him being stubborn then eventually peer pressure and just natural growing up should resolve the issue. If it is down to an underlying pathology then trying to force it won't help anyway. This way you can all put the stress off. Over that year see if you can find additional support (without involving the kid at this stage) so that if/when you do decide to try again you will be armoured with the best advice.

I'm an adopter, sgo holder and fostercarer. It sounds like you've done everything right.
However what is the consequence here for his choices? I appreciate that's hard at school but what about at home? This happens a lot with FCs. When I've ruled everything else out and it's becoming their choice. I do this and it has never failed to work.
Firstly there are no treats for using the loo. It's a standard they need to adhere to.
I'm very nice when they have an accident.."oh dear that's not great. Here's some gloves and a cloth. Rinse those pants out, you'll need to rinse the poo out. Yes it's very dirty that's why I'm not touching it anymore. Pick the poo out with Tissue and flush it away. Rinse the wee out the clothes in the bath"

I very quickly find that they soon stop when they repeatedly have to clean it themselves. It's not a punishment just a natural consequence. Coupled with well we don't have time for the tv/ park etc because it took you a long time to clean up. Quicker if you just do it on the loo next time.

Honestly stick at it. You're doing great. Bet no one thinks you're a bad dad. Bet they all think you're great and wish they could help more.

The 'bribe' or treats need to be kept for when he produces something in the loo/potty, not just for sitting on it!

Having said that, more and more children are older when they toilet train nowadays, and I would possibly go back to nappies for now, then when you can take some time off work and school together, really focus on training. No day trips, just stay in until he starts using it, then short walks with the potty and he has the knack of it.

They'll have seen this and far worse, they wont think you're a bad parent at all

where was he placed after birth? You say he was removed at birth then you and your husband adopted him at 2. This sounds like a child with severe trauma from separation from his birth mother. He’s learned to associate soiling/wetting himself with someone he loves coming back to clean him which is completely normal if he was removed from his mother and then removed from foster parents. And now his adoptive father works away too.. the child needs specialist support so push for that.

Thanks for the replies everyone

He hasn't really said why. When he said he wanted to wear nappies forever we did ask and he said he didn't like them and so we took him to the shops and he chose before we started the next time but it made no difference. I think he does have a good understanding and he is clever. When we tried to nappy fairy, he just laughed and said the babies wouldn't need his nappies and that they get them from the shops not the fairy, he seems to outsmart whatever we have tried.

We have tried getting him involved in cleaning himself up (with help) but isn't bothered by being wet or dirty. He'll sometimes sit playing and if he needs changed he refuses.

He went through a phase telling us he needed a poo in the beginning back in August but that's stopped now too. It is frustrating when he seems to do it deliberately when he immediately has an accident as soon as he gets off the toilet, like he knows it's coming but then we feel guilty for getting frustrated with him

He's similar in other ways like walking if he doesn't want to walk, he doesn't. Even if it's somewhere fun like the park. He sits down and refuses to walk but it's not like he's upset because he's quite happy to sit on the floor, it's not like he's having a tantrum or anything. It's sort of a game of who'll give in first and it's rarely him. But then he'll be running about the park happily