School said it might be best if DS is put back in nappies

[BlitzMelody]

Adopted DS is 4.5, we adopted him when he was 2, we started trying to potty train him just after he turned 3 before he started nursery. It went wrong, he'd scream, bite, scratch and have full on meltdowns after every accident. Tried again and he was still the same and he refused to sit on the toilet/potty at all. Nursery weren't that supportive and it was clear he was the only one in nappies.

We did have a potty in his room and the front room and we would ask him now and again if he needed to use it or if he wanted to try. That also made him distressed, the nappy was sort of like a safety net. We also got a book and read it to him, told him that he was a big boy and babies need his nappies, did he want to give them to the nappy fairy and get a toy (didn't work, he also wears nappies at night so it was confusing for him).

We tried last June and he had 10 days solid of tears, and accidents and he said he didn't want to use the potty or toilet he wanted a nappy “forever”. We phoned Eric because we were at a loss and they just advised to make sitting on the toilet fun and he'd get there.

We tried for the 4th time in August and this time took all nappies away except for nighttime and that's still where we are at now. He has accidents daily, he's quite content to just sit in it and denies he’s even wet or dirty. We try to promise of a toy and sticker charts but that doesn't work. He does wee on the toilet sometimes if we can tell he needs to go, but never a poo.

School initially would prompt him to go and try on the toilet like they did other children but he is strong willed and would refuse, he has accidents daily. I'm usually called at lunch time to change him as he's wet and then at pick up he usually needs changed again. Day outs are the same. Sometimes it feels deliberate.

Yesterday i thought a poo was coming and put him on the toilet with a bribe of a toy, he stayed there for a while because he wanted a toy. he decided nothing was coming so got off and 2 minutes later it was in his pants. This has happened on other occasions but I thought it was a coincidence

I feel like school think I'm a crap dad, DH works away during the week so it's usually just me going in. This week he is off and went today and he got distressed when DH was leaving so in the end he brought him home. The TA or whoever brought him to DH has said that maybe it's best if hes put back in nappies

He's strong willed in other ways too but this is relentless. Can the school suggest this? I thought by now he'd have got it especially being nearly 5 months into reception

Agree.

What support do you have with the adoption, and what do you know of this child's background/ reason he was available for adoption?

I don't have much practical advice, but as a mother who had a difficult time toilet training my youngest (doing just what I had successfully done with the older one) I can attest that having a mother figure isn't the answer to toilet training difficulties. Mine was not so tricky as yours, as she would use the toilet to wee and for the odd poo, but I was summoned to school to clean her up, and she also used to come home with soiled pants pretty much every day at that age. I can't even remember what changed really, but we did get there. It's hard when you hear news stories about "lazy parents not toilet training" and you feel judged in that way, despite giving it your all. Looking back, I regret losing my temper with her sometimes, and trying not to do that would be my main advice- it doesn't help, and it makes everyone feel lousy. When I had to clean her up at school I deliberately lacked warmth with her, which felt awful but I didn't want her enjoying my presence there. We also found ERIC advice about sitting on the toilet on a schedule after food for
five minutes helpful when she started withholding badly, and we let her play games on the tablet while sitting on the toilet- she isn't usually allowed a tablet, so that was pretty incentivising I think. Best of luck with it, and chin up x

I agree with this.

Get the school to arrange a meeting with you, them and the school nurse.

They should not be calling you to go and change him because he’s wet! That’s very common in reception and they can change a child.

💩 poo solidarity’s from me honey💩.

we have a 6 year old who craps in his pants daily , he was diagnosed with coeliac disease ( zero symptoms apart from fecal incontinence)

Firstly make an appointment with school and be frank about your situation then G.P to rule out allergies / coeliac and nerve damage and / or hormones imbalance that can cause incontinence .

withholding and letting go of poo are all linked with adoption even if no abuse is suspected he has still experienced trauma

get help from everyone , ERIC, alsothere should be a specialist poo nurse ( she will have better title but I can't think what it is as we call her the poo nurse ) in your area who can advise

lastly and most importantly release yourself from ALL shame and stressful expectations
you are on a unique journey with your unique family and it is destructive to compare yourself to other families who have their shit together 💩

For a bit of levity, my issue wasn’t the toilet.
It was sucking my thumb - and my parents efforts to get me stop.
I think I was about 4, and my dad and I were at our local cafe - owned by our dear friends of two generations. Our town was small - everybody knew everybody.
The owner and the waitress were standing at our table, saying hello and catching up.
My dad mentioned to them that I was such a big girl, but I still sucked my thumb.
Before anyone could answer, I stood up on my chair and announced to the entire cafe, ”So what - my daddy bites his toenails.”
I remember that, too - my poor dad.
At least you don’t have ME for a kid, @BlitzMelody❤️

My heart breaks reading this a bit for all of you. I think that poor little boy is probably dealing with lots. Cut him a break, let him have the nappies. I’d ask school to be supportive, who knows what trauma he is processing. He’ll get there. Stop the fights between you. Rebuild trust.

I also think you need to see a therapist. My friend’s son had a similar issue and he is her biological son but is raised by two mothers.
your child also was adopted at 2 years old, that’s a huge transition for a small child.

Most of the children which were put up for adoption in the UK have been through severe trauma and neglect. This is a country with easily accessible abortion and free contraceptives, so there aren’t really many children put up for adoption by religious teenagers or unmarried women, as it is in other countries. In the UK children in the system are almost always forcefully taken from their parents who were abusive, drug addicts etc. Early trauma is detrimental to a child’s developing brain, it changes them for life. Their brains become wired differently. Even adoption itself is a trauma as the child is separated from the only family they knew from birth.

Those children need more patience and time to catch up with their peers who were in loving homes from birth. It is often like raising a child with autism or disabilities - they shouldn’t be pushed to fit the norm and be like other children. They won’t be. The damage to their developing brains was done and now it will take a lot of effort for them to catch up with other children. They will have behavioural issues and show the effects of trauma.

I would let your child progress at his own pace. Other children his age might be potty trained but he’s not other children. If he wets his clothes, I would let him wear pull up nappies for as long as he’s comfortable. I wouldn’t try to fight him or push him. He will start using the toilet when he’s ready. Remember he’s not like other kids.

That sounds stressful, but you need to separate the feeling of being judged from what's right for him. I hope that most people would be empathetic anyway.

We used the Eric website and I'm pretty sure it says that if the child doesn't get it within a specific period (12 weeks?) to stop for a while as they aren't ready.

I would give him, yourself and the teachers a break. Then develop another plan with specialist help. Definitely speak to your GP etc

I also agree about not shaming and saying nappies are for babies, he will already know that. They might be a safety blanket or something for him.

Good luck

This is great idea. He does not need to have an EHCP to be changed at school but a medical plan in place. I agree with previous posters that going back to nappies sounds sensible. He is not toilet trained and therefore you won’t be losing any progress. I think meeting with the SENCO and talking about his social and emotional needs is a good idea. The school should be supporting you all as much as they can.

You sound like a brilliant Dad who really wants to help your kid and are very willing to take advice. Whoever said to you that potty training needs a mum is talking rubbish: both my DDs were trained over the summer holidays by their dad who was off work. I had very little patience for the process. Also the one that was harder to train is a very clever girl who's gone on to great things academically despite her earlier fear of potties. I agree you did the right thing to hold off on potty training when he'd had such a lot of other changes aged 2. I don't think that is the reason for your current difficulties. If I were you I'd reluctantly put the nappies back on and get back in touch with ERIC, the GP and as he's under 5 still the health visitors could help or otherwise the school nursing team.

Sounds crazy op but

Has he seen you both pee & poo yourselves? If he grew up in foster care initially its a different relationship and he may not have seen them use the loo. As is often the case with adopted DC, treat him as younger than he is, almost go back ten steps to fill in the exposures he might have missed as a baby/toddler.

Take pressure off and normalise toileting. Let him see you & DH using the loo both sitting and standing, show him this is normal, you don't wear nappies etc.

Make it a game. Targets in the loo to pee at - or let him pee outside in the garden, younger toddlers will often like doing this and lets face it most animals don't like peeing inside their home!!

Time it with his body - most people poo after meals: potty in front of the telly after lunch etc.

Have you started the process of getting him diagnosed yet? It’s clear there’s something going on - often autism - as this isn’t normal and something that kids with autism struggle with due to sensory things

I have no answers @BlitzMelody. But I just want to say that you and your husband sound lovely and you are doing a wonderful thing.

I think @NimbleZebra has it right. I do believe you if you’re feeling judged but I can’t stress this enough - it’s part of default parenting and especially part of doing parenting of children with a bit more going on.

I think it’s likely to be a control thing. I can’t control much about my environment, but I can control where I poo!

I think rather than a play therapist you should consider someone with experience in adoption and attachment.

Who said that thing about him not having a mum? You say it was a professional - was it someone in the playground?

Your DS has two loving parents. You will never please everyone. The more I read, the more I think the answer is to back right off for a bit.

Issues with potty training are not a sign that a child needs an autism assessment! It's much more likely that this is related to attachment/developmental trauma. This is a little boy who has had at least two separations from attachment figures in his life and also likey to have had environmental factors impacting on development.
I would seek support from specialist services for care experienced/adopted children. The GP should be able to refer or signpost or social work.
It's important not to be hard on yourselves or your son. Remember that developmentally he is likely younger than his chronological age. These difficulties are common in children who are adopted/care experienced and it's important not to take any shaming or punitive approach.

Unsure if you missed it in a previous post but he was taken at birth due to neglect of his half siblings and he had 2 previous foster families before we adopted him.

We are going to go ahead with private play therapy. I think the NHS one was meant to go into his school but we've been waiting a long while now. I know he doesn't need to be legally in school yet and won't until September but he does enjoy school apart from this and I worry it’d cause more issues in September if we kept him off now, maybe part time hours but I'm unsure. I do WFH and usually can work when I want it doesn't matter as long as work is done so it wouldn't matter in that regard with him being home. The school wasn't our first choice, our first choice had a SN unit and although he isn't diagnosed SN I wonder if they’d have been more supportive.

We do give him positive attention and have 1 to 1 with him too as well as family time. He does watch us use the toilet even before we began potty training as he always decides he has to show us/tell us something right now as soon as we need the loo 😅

The only time he's actually asked for the toilet and done anything was when we took him to the panto last year and during the interval I got up to go to the toilet and he said he needed to go, and seened really pleased with himself after but as soon as we were home it's been accidents again and denying he needs the toilet.

I think I will put him in nappies tomorrow and speak to school

I can’t help on the toilet training or going back to nappies dilemma, but I really hope you find a way to move forward.

I did want to comment about your school allocation though. As a previously looked after child, under the Admissions code he should have been top priority for his first choice school (with the SN support/unit) so I’m surprised that you weren’t allocated that one. If you aren’t happy with his current school going forward then you may have choices or a higher chance (rightly so) of getting in to another school.

This might be a useful place to star for information that may help.

Changing toilet training trends - Big Toilet Project

That’s a load of rubbish. Schools do not need an EHCP to change a child. Please call your local school nurse and arrange a meeting with them.
Trust me I’ve been through this - thankfully I didn’t have issues with the school (just the toilet situation!) but I’m well versed on it since joining groups on the topic.

Children have accidents at school. It does not need a phone call home. Next time say you can’t come in.

Surely as a fostered/adopted child your ds should be first on the list for school places? If you can move ds in September maybe you could do mornings only at the present school? If only wet, nappy might last the morning and he knows that you collect him at lunchtime come what may? Just a thought. At the end of the day, you are the expert on your own child, and don’t ever worry about being persistent with school/health professionals. Also from my experience with adopted children (I haven’t adopted or fostered so you definitely know more than me!) they often seem to be well settled-but it is amazing how often they progress to the next stage and you realise the difference in them (hope that made sense!) But I definitely agree with some of the previous points about treating him as if he was a year or two younger.

I wouldn't put him in nappies at all. He's challenging you. You know he does it. You'll teach him that if he keeps it up for 5 months he'll win again.

You never let them win a battle, then the next battle is just longer. Refusing to walk to the park? I'll carry you, then I'll be too tired there to play with you. Or you carry them home. Whichever you think will be the biggest lose.

If he has an accident while you're out you go home. He always helps clean himself. If he has an accident while playing with toys those toys get taken away to get washed. Not as punishment. As a simple consequence.

How will nappies help? He'll still need changing, you'll still have to go in. It'll just be easier for him.

He doesn't get rewarded for accidents by getting to eat his lunch in the car or come home early.

It's not cruelty, it's consistency. Children need to know you mean what you say, that you csn hold a boundary, how else are you going to keep them safe? With the lack of consistency he's already had, you flip flopping on this won't help him in my opinion. You need a strong stable home.

We had a urinal for eldest DS, he loved it. Loves a wild wee too. Do you watch him in the toilet? DS hates an audience.

You sound like an amazing parent

OP, if it's any kind of consolation, I'm in the same boat!

My DS is not adopted and has not had any trauma...he's just a full scale toilet refuser. Your comments around refusing to walk etc also resonate with me.

We suspect our DS is autistic but similarly have no diagnosis.

Appreciate if you could let me know anything that works. We too have tried absolutely everything. It's a miserable situation to be in. I feel as though we should form some kind of online support group!!

I completely feel your pain. It feels like a dark cloud that impacts everything. I understand the embarrassment and feeling judged too. I hope there's a Toilet God somewhere out there and our prayers are answered!!

Hello, the pattern sounds a bit like our DD, though we don’t have the complexity of adoption. We tried lots of things. What worked in the end was this lady https://www.pollypoogoeshome.co.uk/toilet-and-potty-training/ coming to our house, it cost quite a lot for a one off but made such a difference after months and months of going through eight pairs of pants a day. DD isn’t perfect now but is much better.
I’m not affiliated to her or anything, she just helped us.