School said it might be best if DS is put back in nappies

[BlitzMelody]

Adopted DS is 4.5, we adopted him when he was 2, we started trying to potty train him just after he turned 3 before he started nursery. It went wrong, he'd scream, bite, scratch and have full on meltdowns after every accident. Tried again and he was still the same and he refused to sit on the toilet/potty at all. Nursery weren't that supportive and it was clear he was the only one in nappies.

We did have a potty in his room and the front room and we would ask him now and again if he needed to use it or if he wanted to try. That also made him distressed, the nappy was sort of like a safety net. We also got a book and read it to him, told him that he was a big boy and babies need his nappies, did he want to give them to the nappy fairy and get a toy (didn't work, he also wears nappies at night so it was confusing for him).

We tried last June and he had 10 days solid of tears, and accidents and he said he didn't want to use the potty or toilet he wanted a nappy “forever”. We phoned Eric because we were at a loss and they just advised to make sitting on the toilet fun and he'd get there.

We tried for the 4th time in August and this time took all nappies away except for nighttime and that's still where we are at now. He has accidents daily, he's quite content to just sit in it and denies he’s even wet or dirty. We try to promise of a toy and sticker charts but that doesn't work. He does wee on the toilet sometimes if we can tell he needs to go, but never a poo.

School initially would prompt him to go and try on the toilet like they did other children but he is strong willed and would refuse, he has accidents daily. I'm usually called at lunch time to change him as he's wet and then at pick up he usually needs changed again. Day outs are the same. Sometimes it feels deliberate.

Yesterday i thought a poo was coming and put him on the toilet with a bribe of a toy, he stayed there for a while because he wanted a toy. he decided nothing was coming so got off and 2 minutes later it was in his pants. This has happened on other occasions but I thought it was a coincidence

I feel like school think I'm a crap dad, DH works away during the week so it's usually just me going in. This week he is off and went today and he got distressed when DH was leaving so in the end he brought him home. The TA or whoever brought him to DH has said that maybe it's best if hes put back in nappies

He's strong willed in other ways too but this is relentless. Can the school suggest this? I thought by now he'd have got it especially being nearly 5 months into reception

Sorry, wrong post!

Mine were all very very late out of nappies ,they all wore bedtime pull ups untill 10/11
We didn't bother with a potty and waited untill they were interested,then we went straight to the toilet with steps and a seat with handles ,incase they didn't feel safe .
Mine have varying degrees of autism,as do I ,and I was very late to to be out of nappies and wet the bed till my teens .
I suppose we could afford to be relaxed about using the toilet as we were home educating ..so they were able to do everything in their own time with no pressure.
If I was in your shoes ..I would put him back in nappies and just go and change him when needed ...but I don't know if that would be official advice..I was always for a very relaxed vibe and no pressure.i would assume he simply is not ready

I agree that you might need to pursue specialist advice. But in the meantime I’d try upping the bribery. So he can watch cartoons if he’s sitting on the potty, and gets chocolate if he does a wee or a poo on the potty. If he manages a whole day without an accident then he gets to choose a toy or go for ice cream.

Finding out whether or not he can avoid accidents will be useful either way.

Gosh, that sounds hard OP. DD was nearly 4 when she potty trained. She's not adopted and has no other issues, she's just strong willed and I think got some sort of worry about it in her head (but wouldn't share). We also tried several times with different methods and then worried we'd traumatised her further so what you say rings lots of bells. In the end we just put the nappies back on and waited till she felt ready and asked to do it and she went straight to the loo, no potty.

I'm not sure this it the right advice but that's my instinct for your little DS too even though he's at school. Just drop the rope and put him back in nappies and reassure him that you know he'll start using the loo when he's ready and you aren't going to push it. Maybe just try and go a whole week or even a month without even mentioning the potty or loo at all. I'd also get some advice on this specifically for an adopted child. It sounds like he's trying to control what he can as lots of things in his life have been out of his control. Fwiw, it sounds like you're doing a great job and I'm sure he'll get there.

This takes me back to my eldest being this age. He wasn't toilet trained for poos until 7.5.

Mine wasn't adopted but has asd. Their behaviour around the toilet and being "self directed" (this is how his paediatrician used to politely describe him when he'd just only do what he wanted and nothing else lol) sounds very similar!

I do think pull ups for school is reasonable. It's not hygienic in the classroom/school environment at all given how often he is just going in his clothes.

Also: WHY are you having to go to school to change him?! My son would be changed by a ta/teacher. They were a very supportive school though and very proactive at getting help and support.

My ds needed movicol by the way. Otherwise they're in a pattern of with holding and that causing constipation and it becomes a vicious cycle.

Can he tell you why he doesn't want to poo in the loo? Mine couldn't at that age, just that he wouldn't. Eventually he was ready and he did it, which I knew he would.

You're not a bad dad! You sound like lovely caring parents.

Perhaps just explain the pants coming back as it's to keep sofas and carpets nice and dry and clean. Also I'd do the same at home as at school as otherwise he will just hold it in until he has the school pull up on!

I think your bribe of a toy has badly backfired.
Not sure what other mums do but I just bought nice undies for my daughter, took away the nappies and though there were accidents before we got there, she hated having wet legs so started using the toilet and wearing the undies.
I did that when she was 2 1/2 ( not 2.5 ,she's not a decimal) as I knew it was not school's responsibility to sort out incontinent children.
TBH 3 was prob a bit late for you to try; habits have set in by then.

If the school know what you've been doing they won't think you are a crap dad. The fact is that changing a nappy will be a faster process than cleaning a child with a possibly leaking pull up with poo everywhere and needing clean clothes. I presume your child hasn't got an EHCP, so there won't be money coming in especially to pay someone to change him. School will therefore have to have someone changing him who is there to support all the kids in different ways, (or possibly 2 people for child protection) so they will need whatever makes the changes as fast and easy as possible.

School is NOT responsible for untoilet trained children,they are there to teach not potty train.

You should have a face to face meeting with your child with ERIC. They should be giving you LOADS of practical advice.
can your child just wear a pull up to school in the meantime or just go in for mornings until he’s dry? Don’t legally need to be in school u til the term after they turn 5.
Could this be a trauma response that your child has no control over?

Find another thread to be judgy on.

Check for constipation

Bribery is a mistake though because in the long term it will be expected for every little thing; they go to bed on time=get toy.Go to school without tantrum=get chocolate and on and on.
This is the way to raise a major manipilator.

Children in the care system are often emotionally younger than their chronological age and can demonstrate very difficult behaviours, big feelings they can't verbalise/understand.
Do you have links to therapy through the adoption. They may have a different level of insight to the behaviour of an 'average/no trauma ' child.
We foster and their therapy support has been amazing at different points in our children's lives. Fostered children often have toileting issues.
n y7 we had one with educational/maturity difficulties. School wanted them to behave like all y7s. I said theyre not capable of that at the moment, theyre emotionally much younger and the Head Of school, 'well they'd better learn then hadn't they!'. I pointed out thats not how child development works - you can't learn various skills until your mind and body are at that stage of development, regardless of your chronological age.

Good luck x

He’s 4. Had an emotional upbringing before adopted by you

put him back in pull ups and relax and don’t make it an issue

try again in a few months /dummer hols if need be

I know lots of 4yrs not pt with no emotional baggage

OP, I'm a teacher. I think that, if the school have suggested this, it's worth considering.

However, you are his parent and if you don't want to and want to persevere a bit longer then do so.

I'd hope they're suggesting it for your son's benefit and not their own convenience. But ultimately, you're the parent and not them.

I also wouldn't be thinking badly of you. You're quite clearly genuinely doing the best you can for your son and that is the marker of a good parent. We also understand that adopted children can come with all sorts of traumas and issues we don't fully understand. Is your son getting support from any external agencies? I've known a number of play therapists who come I to school to work with adopted children with trauma with great effect.

Have you looked into Pathological demand avoidance?

In my opinion if nappies are the correct thing for now to stop his own school learning from being disrupted and because without them he is goin to sit in dirty/wet clothing, I would agree to it. Letting him use pull ups until he is ready and comfortable doesn’t seem like the worst thing in the world. You’re dealing with a child who clearly has some other issue going on, be it trauma from being removed from the birth mother or some kind of ND, as I mentioned above.

It’s better to work with him in my opinion and you shouldn’t see it’s a failing to let him manage this in a way and at a pace that he is more comfortable with. You can keep working towards the goal but him sitting in fully soiled clothing isn’t acceptable. If this is a daily occurrence I think the teacher is correct and he should wear pull ups.

Basically, be led by your son, your experience, your intuition and not arbitrary age related expectations.

Good luck.

Have you tired

1. doll/teddy in a potty next to his potty
2. little live pets gotta go flamingo or giraffe - get him to play with this and see the animal poo etc 3 ) wearing a nappy and placing him on the toilet every so often throughout the day but cut a hole that gradually gets bigger each day until he technically has a nappy on but he will be able to sit on the toilet and poo while wearing what’s left of the nappy
3. teepee tent in the living room with a potty inside and fairy lights like his own little toilet space for him
4. sitting on the potty/toilet with a cup and straw and get him to blow bubbles through the straw into the cup
5. sitting him on the potty/toilet with al his feet in a bowl of water. This can help and he can splash a bit a may forget he’s on the toilet
6. play a song while he’s on the toilet/potty and just ask him to sit there untik the song does the first verse, then next time you til the chorus etc Pick a long one and hopefully he will try going after a few days

We had similar with my little boy. Traumatising for all involved. Got to a point he was dry but would only wee in a nappy. We tried EVERYTHING. Had school nurse involved, spoke to his paeditrician, followed guidance on ERIC website.... you name it we did it. I was losing sleep over it , then one day he asked to wee on the toilet, no tears, tantrums or stress. He's not looked back since. Now I do caveat this by saying he has SEN so was behind with a lot of things but I just wanted to offer solidarity as I know how very stressful it is when it just appears like you can't be bothered but have actually done EVERYTHING.

Some children are just very strong-willed! Your son sounds like he is, using your ‘not going to walk’ example. You and your DH sound like very loving and dedicated parents. A few nasty people have made comments to you about your DS not having a mum. So, you’ve got sources of pressure coming from all sides, including your wish to do the very best for your son.

It’s possible your son has picked up on this in one of two ways: either the pressure makes him anxious so he avoids failing by purposely not trying; or he’s picking up on how much you want him to do this, so is exerting control by not doing it! For both of those, the answer is to keep everything low key. Don’t promise massive rewards, don’t show upset when he wets himself, even if you suspect he’s doing it ‘on purpose’. Be very matter of fact and act like you’re not bothered. Do the same with the walking.

However, also quietly communicate that you’re in charge. When he bites and scratches you, walk away. Don’t engage. If he approaches you to play, ask for whatever, tell him calmly that we don’t do that and he’s to say sorry before you do X for him.

As for school, I’d be tempted to remove him for the rest of that day when he wets himself, so he understands he’ll be missing out. A pre-arranged conversation with a staff member can help with that - that is, you have the conversation in front of your son where the staff member tells you how sad it is that [son] will miss PE, etc, that afternoon, but you both shrug and act casual about it. Your son will soon pick up that no-one’s going to beg, plead or reward him, they’re just going to carry on with their business, and he’ll miss out if he doesn’t sort out his toileting.

NB - all that pre-supposes he has no medical or SEN needs.

We have a 6 year old with similar issues. No SEN no adoption, just a normal child. From what I can tell many young children have issues with something or strange behaviours in one area. Having it being toileting is annoying with much stigma and I suspect most keep it very quiet so nobody is ever going to discuss it socially if child ever even has short bouts. The school said they’d still only be concerned if in year 2 this is still a persistent problem (currently year 1).

Our experienced teacher said there is always 1 child in a class of 30 but usually by year 2 most have improved/stopped. At that point they would do a in school referral to outside services because they are academically and socially bar this problem totally normal.

In the meantime our child has an intimate care plan and they have never once asked us to attend to change him. Also just for anyone judging our child they were potty trained by age 2 (well as best as we could) and there is absolutely no way they’d ever go into nappies that would be like punishment to them, so you really need to judge the decision to go backwards based on the child’s wishes or your just making it even worse for them and further making a big deal out of it - some would possibly prefer nappies back, ours did not. They also do not have any unusual home issues, great stable home life, lots of social contact and physical activities, reading and limited TV. Oh and we also only used reusable nappies, can only imagine if we’d of used something more absorbent!

Definitely look at advice from ERIC in case it’s some obvious issue like constipation that can be fixed. For info our child is more a withholder rather than constipated which is more like what your describing in your post.

Eitherway try and stay calm keep the stools soft/normal using movicol or similar if necessary and keep up with a toilet routine however possible.

We didn't try to train before 3 because we spent the first year bonding with him, we only adopted him aged 2 so he’d had a lot of change.

He was removed at birth after neglect of his (half)siblings, he does know he was adopted and we have books about adoption and having 2 daddies. He knows all families are different.

From day 1 the school said they can't change him as he doesn't have any diagnosis or EHCP, I do worry now that he will continue to have accidents for us to pick him up ad although he likes school he also likes being home with us and his toys etc. I think the school would expect us to still go in and change him if he were in nappies still

It's a good about what he doesn't like about the toilets, when in nursery there was once a flickering light and although at the time we weren't training him, he became obsessed with it and was then scared of having a bath. We had to reassure him for about a week that ours was okay. I know reception and year 1 share their toilets but I think a TA goes with them or did during the first few weeks.

We have been waiting for play therapy for a while and we're now looking at going private

I would put him back in pull ups.
He's still very little and negotiating rhe adoption and what went before.
I think school are just recognising thst now isn't the right time.
Try not to take it personally. It's not about you or your ability as a parent. You obviously want the best for your wee boy. Just take the heat out of things and forget toilet training for a while. He will get there.
If you have any links to post adoption support it would be worth seeking advice for your situation.

You really need to set school straight, they can & legally do have to change him so what they are telling you is a lie because they have support staff who don’t want to help with this problem as they don’t believe it’s there job. Though they should expect to help support your child gaining independence with a clean up as soon as possible or at least with parts of it.

Ask for a intimate health care plan, you don’t need a ECHP to get this as we don’t because there is no identifiable SEN currently. Failing that consider a better more caring school that knows how to enable access and education for all.

We are working parents & we have only attended once or twice to bring them new shoes due to a really big mess despite this problem occurring most or multiple times a day (it has got a bit less this year but still by no means gone away). ERIC has some guidance on intimate care policy if they need some pointers, we were just luckily in that school just went about it the right way from the start without us researching.

This is not correct:
they can & legally do have to change him so what they are telling you is a lie

they do not legally have to change him. They cannot refuse to take a child because they’re not potty trained. But they do not legally have to change their nappy. Don’t get me wrong changing Reception child is seen as part of the job but I can see the teachers point of view if they say no. A lot of it has to do with a relationship between the teacher and the child - and it’s to do with the child’s dignity as much as anything else.