School said it might be best if DS is put back in nappies

[BlitzMelody]

Adopted DS is 4.5, we adopted him when he was 2, we started trying to potty train him just after he turned 3 before he started nursery. It went wrong, he'd scream, bite, scratch and have full on meltdowns after every accident. Tried again and he was still the same and he refused to sit on the toilet/potty at all. Nursery weren't that supportive and it was clear he was the only one in nappies.

We did have a potty in his room and the front room and we would ask him now and again if he needed to use it or if he wanted to try. That also made him distressed, the nappy was sort of like a safety net. We also got a book and read it to him, told him that he was a big boy and babies need his nappies, did he want to give them to the nappy fairy and get a toy (didn't work, he also wears nappies at night so it was confusing for him).

We tried last June and he had 10 days solid of tears, and accidents and he said he didn't want to use the potty or toilet he wanted a nappy “forever”. We phoned Eric because we were at a loss and they just advised to make sitting on the toilet fun and he'd get there.

We tried for the 4th time in August and this time took all nappies away except for nighttime and that's still where we are at now. He has accidents daily, he's quite content to just sit in it and denies he’s even wet or dirty. We try to promise of a toy and sticker charts but that doesn't work. He does wee on the toilet sometimes if we can tell he needs to go, but never a poo.

School initially would prompt him to go and try on the toilet like they did other children but he is strong willed and would refuse, he has accidents daily. I'm usually called at lunch time to change him as he's wet and then at pick up he usually needs changed again. Day outs are the same. Sometimes it feels deliberate.

Yesterday i thought a poo was coming and put him on the toilet with a bribe of a toy, he stayed there for a while because he wanted a toy. he decided nothing was coming so got off and 2 minutes later it was in his pants. This has happened on other occasions but I thought it was a coincidence

I feel like school think I'm a crap dad, DH works away during the week so it's usually just me going in. This week he is off and went today and he got distressed when DH was leaving so in the end he brought him home. The TA or whoever brought him to DH has said that maybe it's best if hes put back in nappies

He's strong willed in other ways too but this is relentless. Can the school suggest this? I thought by now he'd have got it especially being nearly 5 months into reception

I don’t know if this has already been suggested to you, have you tried taking him to the toilet when you go, both to pee and poo? I’m thinking you’re in a single sex marriage, so you and your DH should take your son in with and let him watch. Worked with my GS because it made him feel more grown up. Good luck.

Agree with @Meadowfinch . Back in pull ups and take the pressure away until the spring/ summer. Have any medical conditions been ruled out? Very close relative of mine had exactly the same problem with child ,child has been diagnosed with Coeliac disease.

Personally I would put back in a nappies/pull ups for now as it’s become a battle.
When I had trauma training (worked in a primary school) evidence showed that even children removed at birth experience levels of trauma due to stress hormones altering neurological pathways, without considering substance abuse/lack of antenatal care/ill heath that may also come into play depending on the biological parents.
The training was really eye opening and informative, so worth reading the latest information on it if you haven’t had chance.
Can I also say you’re not a bad Dad and the school will not be judging you, toilet training issues are not uncommon, I think about three children started reception in pull ups when our youngest went last year, I only know as my child asked me why some children needed to wear them.
The longer he sits in wet things the more used he will be to the feeling so school do need to be on top of changing, even a pull up.
You may find as he gets a little further along in reception peer pressure will come into play a little bit, he will realise that everyone else wears pants and may choose to start doing the same.
When I first started potty training mine they wore bambino mio pants, they don’t hold a full wee but they would realise they needed a wee if they became a little wet and you wouldn’t need to constantly change clothes.
The problem is that your child isn’t bothered about the feeling of being wet/soiled, this can be a sign of sensory processing issues etc so worth going back to the GP for a chat.

@BlitzMelody my DS had a lot of issues with toileting. I remember feeling so judged by health visitors, teachers, other parents - I think all the news stories about lazy parents sending kids to school still in nappies don't help - and he was so distressed when we tried to follow the (often conflicting!) advice. Then school referred us to community continence nurses, who I think were part of the school nursing team. They were amazing, supportive and non judgemental. We were prescribed laxatives, as DS was withholding which was making everything worse, and they didn't give us a magic answer, but supported us through finding out what strategies worked for DS. I would highly recommend seeing if you have anyone similar in your local area.

DS is 10 now, on pathway for ASD assessment and still needs some prompting and support around toileting, but generally manages really well, I never thought we'd get here.

Wishing you all the best You really aren't a bad parent because your DS is struggling with toilet training, it took having DD who pretty much trained herself when still under 2 to believe I wasn't!

If he wasn’t adopted my advice might be different. If he doesn’t want to do it then I’d suggest the best thing is not to make him, he’s strong willed and this is something he has control over. Put it on the back burner for a bit and when he’s happy then make him think it’s his idea to potty train, pick a date in the future that he’s going to start and talk about it lots, before the big day take him out to buy a cool new potty and some pants and make it a big deal, buy him some chocolate too, both of my children were bribed to potty train, as was I.

Minor constipation isn’t nothing in kids unfortunately… it causes big issues. I have been dealing with it for years. Between the constipation and the poor feeling he will have developed because he has been ignoring the need to go for years.

You are definitely going to need some professional help.

Some helpful replies, apologies if I miss anything.

Just to say in case it wasn't clear that the teachers don't clean him up, they call us which is fair and I'm not criticising the school for that but I do feel judged, especially as it's usually me who goes in as I WFH and DH works in the office or away a few times a month as he has meetings abroad and I do feel slightly judged by whoever brings him to me (and receptionist). I do think DH working away is the reason he got so upset at being left at school as he isn't like that at me he quite happily goes back with the teacher. Yesterday, when he got upset DH took him to his car and he ate his lunch and then happily went back and DH then picked him up later that day which was all good but today he wasn't having any of it and he got worked up so he brought him home.

To the posters asking why give in and that's part of the problem, he's strong willed and if be doesn't want to do something like walk that day he won't even though he isn't distressed in anyway. We haven't given in as he's been in pants during the day since August, not at night as that's a different process. He's our only child and we haven't had any experience with other children and I do think we've messed up somehow by trying all different approaches. Maybe that's confused him somehow

He is in actual nappies and not pull ups as when we tried to switch to pull ups he had the same meltdown with biting and scratching and crying. And they seemed to leak at night.

I've seen other threads before posting this where posters have been advised to pull them out until they're 5, but I really don't want to do that as he likes school and is happy though the school wasn't our first choice

I think I am sensitive to judgment. I was once told the issue is he doesn't have a mum figure and in foster care he had a mum and a dad, sort of saying if he had a mum he'd be fine (??) that wasn't from a medical professional or anyone like that but still

I'd do what the school advise as it's probably better for your ds. Then seek help on how to deal with it.

Agree that the background between birth and adoption is important. Where was he placed during that time? You should be receiving extra support as a same-sex male couple that has adopted; children can really struggle to transition to not having a mother figure, particularly if they had one in foster care. (And that’s not to be disparaging at all, it’s just a psychological hurdle that often needs to be overcome in these circumstances.) Have you received or sought that?

Edit: Cross-posted with you. I do think it would be helpful to see a child psychologist. If he was with one family during his entire foster period and then went to you that will be a trauma as well. He needs some psychological support and you two need some help and support too.

Try contacting the school nurse service. They will have seen this all before. They were brilliant for a friend who thought her daughter would still be in nappies going up the aisle

I don’t agree. This poor little boy is really struggling and at the moment is just getting mixed messages. As a Senco I would be advising that he goes back in nappies to give him chance to reset, but alongside that I would be making a referral to a paediatrician as he clearly has some deep seated issues which are likely linked to his history.
Once an intensive programme is implemented then the nappies come off. OP, it does concern me that school are not changing him. In my school, a care plan would be put in place to ensure he is changed in a timely manner. If he waits for a parent to come in to change him he could get sore, or worse still learn that all he needs to do is poo in his pants and dad will come and take him home.

this is going to sound random but what does he think about poo? Does he think it is a normal bodily function or does he think it is disgusting? We had big issues with our 3year old (also very strong willed) and it turned out one of his caregivers talked about 'nasty poo' and he internalised that as 'something I don't want anyone to see' and nappy didn't count as seeing. We got a potty with a lid. When he was done he could stand up and put the lid down - and the poo vanished! After that progress was rapid :-)

I have 2 adopted children, and can wholly relate. My youngest was a dream to potty train, he was out of nappies at 2 1/2, and dry overnight at 3. But the oldest was still in pull-ups at 6, and still wetting the bed at 13. But he got there in the end, in his own time.

The one piece of advice I can offer is throw away the rule book, along with any expectations of 'normal' from school, and do what YOU think is best. It doesn't matter if he's not ready and needs nappies a bit longer than most kids, he will get there.

I learned very early on to stop caring what other people think. If they have never tried to parent a traumatised child with attachment issues (which most adopted children have to some degree), they have no right to judge. You are not a crap dad, and shame on anyone who makes you feel like that. You are just a dad trying your best in a unique situation.

My boys are now 20 & 21, and the very reason I have wrinkles, grey hair and no money. The oldest continues to challenge us on a daily basis, but that's a a story for another day...

School allowing him to sit in his own mess isn't going to be helping or him knowing that if he has an accident, you'll be going to change him. Will that be the same if he goes back into nappies or will they change him if he's in nappies?

Does he have an intimate care plan? I'd be asking for a meeting and if he doesn't already have one, an intimate care plan which doesn't involve you changing him because that really shouldn't be the case.

In terms of preferring nappies- is it because it’s tight round the hips and that’s what he prefers? - maybe try boxers with a thick waistband rather than pants.

Do not give in to him in regards to the loo- make it seem like he has a choice- either option is your preference.

Is he scared of the toilets at school?

I found rather than asking my son if needs the toilet- it’s better when I tell him it’s time to go the toilet.

Sounds like you are really trying in difficult circumstances-
try to separate out the problem - the toilet training and what the challenge activates in you - e.g. I’m being bad parent / I’m not good enough / I’m letting people down - whatever it sounds like in your head -

it’s tricky enough anyway when little ones are reluctant / resistant to moving up the milestones - like toilet training but it’s whole lot harder when you have a layer of self criticism dumped on the top !!

be kind to yourself
tackle it from a problem solving perspective-
if you need more info / skills - pull in the early years experts - health visitor / school nurse / early help / social worker -

don’t be reluctant to get expert help because of fear of being judged - you don’t deserve that, you are clearly a loving and compassionate daddy

Hi @BlitzMelody first off sending huge supportive un-mumsnetty hugs 💐💐💐

please ask for this to be moved to the adoption board as you will get less responses but they’ll be more focussed.

first off from an adoptive mom also in a same sex relationship it’s bloody hard. We can only do what we judge as right with our knowledge and judgment at that moment in time.

please be kinder to yourself!!!

there will 100% be multiple factors at play here which are going to be too complex and unique to your son to get answers online.

if you don’t already have it then please get in touch with post adoption support & get their help. There isn’t an instant fix but there will be ways to support him and you through this.

take all pressure and guilt and frustration away from him & each other, refocus on connection and togetherness and get some support and then you can find away forward.

Happy If you want to PM me for how we managed things but for now I really would just remove all expectations and find some joy together and get some professional support from people who understand adoption.

all the best!

and I do think we've messed up somehow by trying all different approaches. Maybe that's confused him somehow

I was told that by nursury teachers/TA other parents family - always my fault somehow . Took till DD1 was 19 to get diagosned with inattentive ADHD -rife in our wider family - and dsylexia and dyspraxia which I was pretty sure she had from toddler years as I have them - DS is now looking.

They took longer - it was awful at time mainly due to other adults - but they got there and it wasn't anyone fault. That's so much conflict advice which doesn't help - and everyone has their prefer method that worked for there usually normal child. Some kids take longer and if they do it's more likely you'll have tried a few different methods as you have try for longer - then that becomes the stick to beat you with.

I wouldn't rule out constipation- and I can say I had very stubbon toddlers we tried to reframe it as them knowing their own mind - they are perfectly lovely teen and young adults now.

You shouldn't feel judged or guilty.

The school should help him get changed and not let him sit in wet clothes. My son had occasional accidents at school (only pee) and they always helped him to get changed.

We had a similarish struggle with my (not adopted) son and chocolate buttons/rewards and lots of things suggested were no good - but he only has occasional accidents now.

Does your son have any signs of sensory issues as it can be linked to them?

I would question are the school suggesting nappies as they think it's in his benefit or because more convenient for them?

If he's not using the toilet at all, which it sounds like from your OP then yes, he should definitely be in nappies. Then you should ask the school to write an intimate care plan so that someone there can change him. You could ask your GP for a referral to the continence service as well.

My adopted son was very similar at that age. He had cracked wees at home around 4y2m but he wouldn't use the preschool toilets at all, or a potty or urinal there. He either held it or wet himself. He didn't crack poos until 4y11m. He actually didn't start school until he was 5 so we didn't have the issue you're having but he would have definitely been going in nappies if he had started at 4.

In our case my son is autistic as well as being adopted and I'm not sure why he was delayed with toilet training but for your son it's definitely not because he doesn't have a mother figure, no one should be saying that to you.

I don't know if it'll help but i'm going to add my tale of sadness with all of this here just in case it's useful.

my youngest was very late training and i got myself so over worried about it. the trauma of school looming and her just willing to hold it for ever and then arrive home and literally flood the hall. like honestly everywhere. it was soul destroying.

I bought potties like thrones because she said she'd use them. i did literally everything i could think of including setting up a potty training area where she could see the tv so she wasn't missing anything.

it went on and on she got more and more angry. A toy was purchased and placed up where she could see it and i told her she could have that for her first wee on the toilet / potty

Honestly i look back now and it was just ridiculous.

What made her just get on with it? Putting her back in nappies and giving up. Taking the pressure off, having a new baby and taking my focus off her.

I just found her one day on the bog minding her own business. like she'd be going for years by herself. i then made a huge fuss gave her "big scoop" off the top of the cupboard (the toy i'd been promising). she looked at it and said "didn't want it anyway".

I'd made it in to such a massive deal and she's as stubborn as a mule. (still is and she's just about to turn 26) she just didn't want to do what everyone desperately wanted her to do.

she could read before she could use the toilet. i wasn't teaching her, i mean stop signs in car parks and words in supermarkets.based on the phonics at nursery.

with second child i learned from this and do not have any memory of her potty training.

Sounds like chronic constipation. It can build and then just leak out and he can get desensitised to it, meaning he might not be able to tell when it's coming.

I'd push for a paediatric referral. And in the meantime turn it into a routine. Use screens to keep him on the loo if you have to. Half an hour in the morning before school, half an hour after and half an hour before bed. Aim forward r those times and even if you manage 15 mins, it's a start. And buy cheap pants that you can just chuck. It's the best for your mental health!

Can you afford to look into something like play therapy to see if he can be helped to explain his feelings around this?

One child who refused decided in his own time after seeing his little school friends using the loo during the day. He then didn't want nappies anymore.

Another one wanted the pull ups with pretty pictures on Disney style. They were for little girls but he wanted only those.

Having dads pee into the loo with them has also been known to work. You can paint a target 🎯 onto the loo for him to aim at.

Who knows how their little minds work.

I haven't read all the comments so maybe this was already suggested by other posters, but some children really struggle with (the sensation) of 'letting go' of their urine of feces, as in the feeling that it is 'falling' out of them. Sometimes the fear/discomfort around this can be so much that they even prefer just playing and sitting in their dirty nappies because it feels safer somehow.

From my experience and from what I heard this is usually more a psychological issue than a physical one, but the ensuing constipation can make it more difficult.
Both my DS had this issue between the ages of 4-4,5 and it did resolve itself. One of my DS had ASD and the other is very very strong willed and possibly ADHD. (This is relevant here as they have a different sensory experience than neurotypical children)

'Potty training' can be a bit misleading of a term because (especially strong willed) children don't let others control their physical functions; they are ready when they are ready and for some children it takes longer. Your DS seems to really want to be in control of things which can be very challenging but it makes a lot of sense, especially given his history.

What helped our DSs was practicing in small steps; 1 going to the bathroom with their nappy on and change the nappy there, 2. Sitting on the toilet with nappy on and let them do their business in the nappy, 3. Fashioning a 'toilet paper nappy' and sit on the toilet when they have to go, 4. Put some (ot a lot of) toilet paper down in the toilet and then the last step would be the normal way. You can do this with a rewarding system for every small step.

I think the advice someone posted about asking on the adoption forum is a good one.

I know I haven't answered your original question but hope it is somewhat useful. Don't be so hard on yourself, you are already doing everything you can and more. Most likely your DS needs some more time... Good luck OP 🍀