School said it might be best if DS is put back in nappies

[BlitzMelody]

Adopted DS is 4.5, we adopted him when he was 2, we started trying to potty train him just after he turned 3 before he started nursery. It went wrong, he'd scream, bite, scratch and have full on meltdowns after every accident. Tried again and he was still the same and he refused to sit on the toilet/potty at all. Nursery weren't that supportive and it was clear he was the only one in nappies.

We did have a potty in his room and the front room and we would ask him now and again if he needed to use it or if he wanted to try. That also made him distressed, the nappy was sort of like a safety net. We also got a book and read it to him, told him that he was a big boy and babies need his nappies, did he want to give them to the nappy fairy and get a toy (didn't work, he also wears nappies at night so it was confusing for him).

We tried last June and he had 10 days solid of tears, and accidents and he said he didn't want to use the potty or toilet he wanted a nappy “forever”. We phoned Eric because we were at a loss and they just advised to make sitting on the toilet fun and he'd get there.

We tried for the 4th time in August and this time took all nappies away except for nighttime and that's still where we are at now. He has accidents daily, he's quite content to just sit in it and denies he’s even wet or dirty. We try to promise of a toy and sticker charts but that doesn't work. He does wee on the toilet sometimes if we can tell he needs to go, but never a poo.

School initially would prompt him to go and try on the toilet like they did other children but he is strong willed and would refuse, he has accidents daily. I'm usually called at lunch time to change him as he's wet and then at pick up he usually needs changed again. Day outs are the same. Sometimes it feels deliberate.

Yesterday i thought a poo was coming and put him on the toilet with a bribe of a toy, he stayed there for a while because he wanted a toy. he decided nothing was coming so got off and 2 minutes later it was in his pants. This has happened on other occasions but I thought it was a coincidence

I feel like school think I'm a crap dad, DH works away during the week so it's usually just me going in. This week he is off and went today and he got distressed when DH was leaving so in the end he brought him home. The TA or whoever brought him to DH has said that maybe it's best if hes put back in nappies

He's strong willed in other ways too but this is relentless. Can the school suggest this? I thought by now he'd have got it especially being nearly 5 months into reception

I don’t have anything to add to the already excellent advice you have received on potty training. However, your comment about him being very upset when your husband works away/leaves - I would say this is something you should discuss with a trauma/attachment/adoption informed professional as I wonder whether this could be re-igniting the trauma and attachment issues that he, as an adopted child, will certainly have on some level - albeit that they may not have surfaced yet. They would hopefully be able to help with the transition management in a way that feels safe to him.

And to echo what everyone else has said, you are definitely not a bad dad, and nobody will be judging you.

So there is a lot to unpack here and sorry you are going through it. Sadly 3 is quite late to potty train and can result in toileting issues if it’s forced and feels like this, along with adoption challenges, and traumatic experiences with the potty since have compounded things. Firstly it’s normal to wet yourself even at 4.5 but not daily and not to sit in it. I would suggest making sure they don’t have any underlying causes (biological or psychological) especially if they are still in nappies at night - I definitely don’t think nappies are the answer, nappies at night will be confusing. Options now? Cold turkey, no nappies in the house so it’s not an option, maybe time out of school to get a handle on it? it really depends on your child and not knowing your child I can’t say if it’s emotional or developmental. We had a brief regression and shamelessly went basic treat/punishment approach. If they did a wee in the toilet treat, all week toy, if they wet themselves then they were made aware of the absence of treat, or we suggested (but never did) removing privileges like screen time. The toilet was used within a couple of weeks accidents stopped. Both my kids have been dry at night since 2 though as we went cold turkey approach.

He will have experienced trauma just by being taken away from his mum. He may have changes to his brain from alcohol, drug or cortisol, depending on the experiences he had in utero. Honestly, even if you haven't been informed of this the percentage of FASD in kids who have been in the care system is gigantic! You need advice from the adoption/therapeutic parenting world (Facebook groups) around this as it's a common issue. We often think, in the adoption world of adopted children emotionally being about half their chronological age, which could be impacting him.

Why is it rarely him who gives in first? Surely you can see this is where you're going wrong?

Bribery with Smarties worked for my son after trying everything else.
One Smartie given immediately for a wee on the potty or loo, two Smarties for a poo. We were desperate but it worked brilliantly.
I went everywhere with a tube of Smarties in my pocket, I only had to get them out and rattle them every hour or so and he would rush to the nearest potty or loo and go! Over a weekend or maybe half term, spend time at home without trousers or pants on, and just keep reminding.
Please try this, it worked so well for us.

I teach this age group.

1. your school is part of the problem. They are leaving him sitting in it until lunch and then until home. It may not be now, but by summer other children will be aware that he is soiled. The school need to protect his dignity. Also, the more he “sits in it” the greater his tolerance for sitting in it will be. As a teacher, I hate changing kids. I didn’t go into teaching to deal with this many bodily fluids, but I care about them and want them to learn. They can’t do that while sitting in their own waste. A meeting needs to be had with the school, class teacher, SENCO and head. Even if your child has no diagnosis, this is a need that is affecting his education
2. There is most likely an underlying issue. The fact he sits for ages and then stands up and poos shortly later suggests he can’t feel the bowel move at all. Go back to the GP and pester.
3. in the short term, “Bambino Mio” make toilet training pants. They are a cross between pull ups and actual underwear. It will wick some of the wet feeling away but not the poo obviously.

I “saved” this thread because it stuck with me just how well the mum coped with dd’s continence issues (bowel mainly i think) and how much they bonded as she and her dd coped with it together and got answers together. Might be worth a read if only to show how much it does bother children, and how much happier she was when her mum reassured her that she wasn’t to blame.
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/general_health/553228-please-help-me-with-my-seemingly-incontinent-8-year-old

Knowing people whose boys struggled with this (for a long time), I would personally go back to nappies for a bit while you still can. Take the pressure off and try again in a couple of months.

I am sure you know this but adopted children can regress and have attachment issues and I have a feeling there might be some elements of this here. Definitely seek support from adoption services, school nurse, and ask to be referred by the GP. His development with this will almost certainly not be neurotypical and more complex. I am an adopted parent and I get it, if it helps, my child was still in pull ups at night until 7/8 and even now at 11 doesn't always wipe well. It's because developmental trauma impacts all elements of their development, however, my daughter is also super resilient, so there are lots of positives later down the line. You sound like an amazing Dad. From my experience very few schools are trauma informed. Can you encourage them to understand how his background is relevant and also you should also be having termly EPAC meetings to discuss support/issues, and there will be his PPP funding which could be allocated to support with some help.

I could be wrong but sometimes children like to control things if they're distressed and maybe refusing to give up nappies is something he feels he can control.
I would try taking him shopping, let him choose his pants. Let him choose a reward that he could have later on if he uses the toilet. Let him choose a step to step on to get up to the toilet, a new potty, anything. Try to help him feel in control and that might be the key.

I also agree with previous advice factoring everything in, just wanted to add this.

Also my child was dry during the day at 3 but still in pull ups overnight till the age of 5, I really wouldn't stress about night time yet at all.

You have already had lots of excellent advice and you sound like a fantastic dad. I just wanted to mention that the 'Poo goes home to Pooland' story did wonders for my son's fear/reluctance towards pooing in the potty/toilet literally overnight. I read it twice one bedtime and he did his first poo in the potty the next morning, and never soiled himself again. It was a PDF to print out back then (nearly 17 years ago) but I think it's an app now.

This poor little lad sounds like he has been through so much. He will get there. You are certainly NOT a bad dad. He is very lucky to have you and your husband who clearly love him so much.

I wonder if there’s a link here between being a baby/being young, the adoption and the toilet training? If he was removed at birth, presumably in foster care till adoption, then there’s a lot of trauma there even if he isn’t aware. Have you had support from a therapist, especially life story work or play therapy? Can be so beneficial for kids who’ve been through early trauma.

oh wow I feel for you here! Our son is adopted as well but was placed at 6 months. He was still late to potty train. We tried at 3 and it was just as you said he became really distressed. We quit after one day and didn’t mention it again for 6 months. Then we said to him we’d like to try again and he had 1 accident on day one and then refused a night nappy day 2 and was basically potty trained. No tears, no fuss, no pressure.
his trauma background will be having a MASSIVE impact on this and applying any kind of pressure on it will not help any of you. It’s very common for adopted children to regress after placement so expect things to take their time.
i would suggest having a look at PDA with some of the other things you are describing.
our son is 11.5 now and was diagnosed AuDHD nearly 2 years ago. As part of that we came across PDA and that is very definitely our son. That can be a part of autism but it also can show in the same way because of trauma. I don’t know if the pda traits are Autism or trauma with him but the effect is the same and the parenting techniques work in the same way.
it’s a tough job and I really hope no one is judging you but if it were me I’d go back to the nappies and not make a thing of it. He will be there when he’s ready which in all likelihood will be sooner than you think.
we underestimated severely the impact of trauma because our son was also removed at birth and placed with us at 6 months but it runs very very deep. A friend is in the same situation with her son who was placed with her at birth and at 9 years old the trauma is very very real.
reach out to adoption support and see if the can get you some therapeutic input for him.

Some good advice above.

You can get pants that have a waterproof layer rather than nappies as a transition Stage. These worked well for us.
You can also get fun aiming games for boys for the toilet for the weeing.
For the poo, this is harder, but my son was really interested in the toilet and pipes itself at that age. You could try getting him a biy interested in this, where does our poo go, how does the toilet work. Videos and youtube. I watched a lot of stuff about sewage pipes and toilet mechanisms when my son was that age. It might help, its worth a try.

If you removed all nappies months ago and there is no progress I would take the school's advice and reset things by putting back in pull-ups for now. I don't think the school will be judging you at all as if he was easy to train they could do it at school and regularly do these days with delayed potty training. I think you need to call ERIC again and go back to the GP as ask to be referred as you need more support to get him trained. I'm sure it will happen.

My son with a severe learning disability was slow to potty train and I remember Cambridgeshire provided a child continence service with nurse support. This is the sort of thing that might not exist in all areas or has been cut, but it might be worth checking if there is one local to you.

Firstly - you are a great Dad and having had a child of my own who struggled with toileting/withholding I understand the frustration and worry you are going through.
I think as the wetting/soiling is so frequent going back to a pull up maybe the sensible option here. You need to take absolutely all the pressure off - and ALL the attention he's inevitably getting around this issue.

You could try getting laxatives from your GP - that will at least stop any constipation that can make things worse.

Also another method you may try - although it's painstaking and can seem totally daft to most. Basically you remove the nappy gradually. First get him to sit on the toilet with the nappy still on. see if he'll have a poo or wee while sitting there into the nappy. If he does - then you start cutting gradually larger holes into the nappy. He will gain confidence to "go" while on the toilet but still have his "reassurance" that the nappy is there. Eventually you'll end up with like a "belt" top bit of the nappy which hopefully by that stage you will happily say goodbye to. Also ease off constantly asking him if he needs the toilet - I've found that constant prompting to be counter productive. We got to the stage he was wearing pants most of the time - but went into the loo himself and put the nappy (or what was left of it) on himself to go. (Age 6)

It’s so hard for you as you have been getting so much conflicting advice! However my opinion is that he’s not saying “why” because he genuinely doesn’t know why he does it, it’s not on purpose. My guess is he is denying that he needs changed because he is doesn’t want to be forced to confront it. I can guarantee though that he does know and he does mind. As other posters have said, adoption trauma has to be considered-it isn;t easy for any of you!

Hey OP. My son is the same age as yours (just 5 in reception) and though a different story and context also had huge issues with soiling and refusal to use the toilet for poos (though weirdly fine with wees) with some big meltdowns in response the whole thing. I also felt a lot of shame and stress about it. We got a referral to paediatric incontinence/bladder and bowel in the autumn and with their help have seen a huge improvement in just a few months. I’d definitely speak to ERIC again but also go back to the GP and ask for a referral as 5 is usually the threshold for this. Good luck

Have you tried poo goes to poo land?

We bribed my DC with actual chocolate bars to sit on the loo for 10 mins after breakfast around the same age.

We didn't heap praise or pressure DC to poo. It did help and he didn't have any accidents for months.

However it didn't last. He's now almost 10 and still has occasional accidents. Turns out there's some physiological issues. Everyone assumes leaking around constipation which is really annoying - it wasn't in our case.

I don’t know why you are taking umbrage with the school’s advice. If he isn’t toilet trained then he needs nappies for his own sake surely. It’s not dignified for him to have poop in his trousers and have to hang around whilst the school attempts to clean him. It’s obviously going to be more of a disruption to him and his learning, than if he had a nappy on. You can continue trying to wean him off at home and only when you feel absolutely confident, revisit school.

I agree with this, especially in saying school is part of the problem.

Adoptive parent here. Mine were older and past nappies when they came but had similar issues with pretty much every standard milestone! Have you had input from a trauma informed practitioner and/or books? (Could you ask post adoption support?) I feel like you are being given advice based on typically developing children, which adoptive children are not.
Both my ACs operate in many ways well below chronological age - we tend to think subtract three years but sometimes more. In that sense, as long as it's logistically possible, putting him back in nappies might not be the worst thing.

Have you had any support after adoption? You say he was removed at birth - why? You don't need to answer here obviously, but what does he know or imagine about his birth mother/family? What has he overheard? What story does he tell himself to explain who he is in your family? I would really push for some play therapy to explore his experience of being adopted.