20% vat on fees

namechangedforthisone35 · 2023-12-10T06:17:41+00:00

*IF* Labour get in and *IF* the 20% does get added to fees, how many private school pupils will be moved to state? I have three kids (one not school aged yet) and in private school. One of many reasons because I didn't want them in a class of 30. I couldn't afford the vat increase so would have to move them but then that class of 30 becomes, what, 40?! In an already strained and unresourced system?! Wwyd? Y - I'd have to move kids to state N - I'll pay the vat

Tulipsroses · 10/12/2023 06:24

Y

YireosDodeAver · 10/12/2023 06:28

Not all schools will add 20%.

Firstly, once vat is chargable on fees, vat paid by the school on supplies can be reclaimed. The majority of school expenditure is obviously on teacher salaries which is irrelevant for that but I would guess at least a quarter of the hike can be absorbed that way. Private schools can also make savings to keep fee increases as low as possible. A well-managed school could probably juggle these two things to keep the hike to around 10% rather than 20%.

For most families with kids in private schools that 10% will not be a dealbreaker. They will make savings elsewhere and keep their kids in school.

Even if pessimistically a quarter of the pupils currently in private schools move over to the state system, that would be a change from 92% state + 8% private to 94% state + 6% private so the proportional increase in stare school numbers works out as an extra 0.65 pupils per class of 30 in the average state school, ie about two-thirds of classrooms get one extra pupil.

It's not a big deal and your concept of class sizes leaping from 30 to 40 is ridiculous - there aren't that many privately educated kids.

YireosDodeAver · 10/12/2023 06:30

(But in answer to your q:)

N - I'll pay the VAT

Original poster

namechangedforthisone35 · 10/12/2023 06:42

@YireosDodeAver my kids school in the upper years is £18k. Even 10% and with three kids is a huge hike

OP posts:

Tulipsroses · 10/12/2023 06:43

@YireosDodeAver
Apart from some populist nonsense the VAT introduction would not change anything.
Currently the budget for education in UK is £55billion, the VAT introduction will raise an extra £1.5b. If you divide the funding per pupil it's 2-3% increase. However private schools spend three times per head then states schools. So the budget would need to increase 300% to make a difference.
It's just another populist idea that will not change anything. However doesn't it feel good to blame everything on those fat cats that pay for their children's private schools!

jesterdourt · 10/12/2023 06:47

I couldn't afford the vat increase so would have to move them but then that class of 30 becomes, what, 40?!

unlikely as many schools are suffering from falling rolls.

kezzykicks · 10/12/2023 07:14

All the schools in my local area are Ofsted good and all have good reputations, only 2, the outstanding, very heavily oversubscribed ones, of them have classes full with 30 children however. Most of them have class sizes of between 20-25. My dc go to one of the over subscribed schools but I have a job where I visit lots of local schools so see most of them are not full to capacity.

Ilovemygoldfish · 10/12/2023 07:22

It won’t happen. Most independent schools have been keeping data for the past 3/4 years on this issue and the response from parents is quite clear- it is unlikely we will carry on sending my child here. The various bodies that represent indie schools will lobby any government intensively about it and my prediction is that this will be the first thing Labour drops quietly. The issue is most prevalent where you have more than one child at a school. At the moment fee increases yoy are around 6-10%, adding another 20% on this would spell the end for a lot of schools.

Independent schools do much for the local areas and for students who do not attend their schools. They share facilities, provide support in running courses (particularly niche A level courses) and training opportunities for local teaching staff which are free to attend for local pupils/communities. They provide mock University interviews for local kids. They provide financial assistance and bursaries to students locally. This is part of the commitment to hold charitable status. What does everyone think will happen to all of this support if charitable status is removed? There is zero incentive to continue with it, and all but the very richest establishments will slowly withdraw. This cannot be good for the local community. Labour’s ‘plan’ is populist claptrap.

The danger is now. Some parents are already concerned about this and are already throwing money at achieving Grammar school places. If the policy is implemented, after the working independent school parents withdraw their kids from private schools and take up all of the places at the Grammars/selective state schools before the local community gets a look-in, and all of the house prices /rents move up, will everyone be patting themselves on the back then?

The overwhelming majority of parents I know with kids at independent schools work hard to send their kids there. Quite often because of the wrap around care provided which makes going to work easier. There are no oligarchs/fat cats/children of minor royals or Dukes etc. oh, and classes are sometimes already 30 at indie schools.

During the pandemic, independent schools carried on and supported students because they needed to justify the fees. Independent school teachers have no less caring responsibility/childcare issues than their state counterparts but still managed to put together a full timetable. During the pandemic my next door neighbour’s child (who attends a local state secondary school) had less than an hour a day timetabled for online tuition. Where was his support?

Before all independent schools are demonised, we need to consider what needs fixing in the state system that makes everyone so aggrieved about how other people choose to spend their money to opt out of it.

Heatherbell1978 · 10/12/2023 07:23

My DS just got an offer from a school for starting next year (P6 in Scotland). Over the moon but this is a huge cloud over whether we accept or not. I think we will but also need to think about DD moving to private in the future too (both kids currently in state).

We're not happy with things at his current school so I think we need to take a deep breath and go for it. But where we are there will probably be around 5 kids from DS school that move private next year so not a huge addition if they moved back to state.

Overall probably around 20 kids each year in the local high school catchment that go private instead. But there are a good chunk of them from very wealthy families who will barely register this rise.

Heatherbell1978 · 10/12/2023 07:29

Ilovemygoldfish · 10/12/2023 07:22

It won’t happen. Most independent schools have been keeping data for the past 3/4 years on this issue and the response from parents is quite clear- it is unlikely we will carry on sending my child here. The various bodies that represent indie schools will lobby any government intensively about it and my prediction is that this will be the first thing Labour drops quietly. The issue is most prevalent where you have more than one child at a school. At the moment fee increases yoy are around 6-10%, adding another 20% on this would spell the end for a lot of schools.

Independent schools do much for the local areas and for students who do not attend their schools. They share facilities, provide support in running courses (particularly niche A level courses) and training opportunities for local teaching staff which are free to attend for local pupils/communities. They provide mock University interviews for local kids. They provide financial assistance and bursaries to students locally. This is part of the commitment to hold charitable status. What does everyone think will happen to all of this support if charitable status is removed? There is zero incentive to continue with it, and all but the very richest establishments will slowly withdraw. This cannot be good for the local community. Labour’s ‘plan’ is populist claptrap.

The danger is now. Some parents are already concerned about this and are already throwing money at achieving Grammar school places. If the policy is implemented, after the working independent school parents withdraw their kids from private schools and take up all of the places at the Grammars/selective state schools before the local community gets a look-in, and all of the house prices /rents move up, will everyone be patting themselves on the back then?

The overwhelming majority of parents I know with kids at independent schools work hard to send their kids there. Quite often because of the wrap around care provided which makes going to work easier. There are no oligarchs/fat cats/children of minor royals or Dukes etc. oh, and classes are sometimes already 30 at indie schools.

During the pandemic, independent schools carried on and supported students because they needed to justify the fees. Independent school teachers have no less caring responsibility/childcare issues than their state counterparts but still managed to put together a full timetable. During the pandemic my next door neighbour’s child (who attends a local state secondary school) had less than an hour a day timetabled for online tuition. Where was his support?

Before all independent schools are demonised, we need to consider what needs fixing in the state system that makes everyone so aggrieved about how other people choose to spend their money to opt out of it.

I really hope you're right (see my previous post). The demonising private schools get is baffling to me when all they're doing is educating our children. The vast majority of them don't produce the people who end up running our country badly. In fact that's perhaps just 1 or 2 schools. But they're all tarnished with the same brush.

Original poster

namechangedforthisone35 · 10/12/2023 07:31

@Heatherbell1978 I agree completely. I work at my kids school so we're sending them already on a staff discount, it's a huge sacrifice for us to find the rest. Yet we're put into the "rich got money" club by everyone else. We're really Joe Very Average.

OP posts:

jgw1 · 10/12/2023 07:32

The average private school increase in fees this year ahs been 7.1% and rolls have risen.
On 1st September 2019 employer teacher pension contributions rose by 40%. Private school rolls continued to rise.
On 1st April 2024 employer teacher pension contributions will rise by a further 27%.
Private schools have the option of increasing their fees to cover these rises if they are stil in TPS. State schools do not.

Note that TPS is unfunded, employee and employer contributions return to the government and are spent like any other tax.
What we should all be worrying about is why the current government is imposing massive increases in costs on state schools.

jesterdourt · 10/12/2023 07:37

The danger is now. Some parents are already concerned about this and are already throwing money at achieving Grammar school places. If the policy is implemented, after the working independent school parents withdraw their kids from private schools and take up all of the places at the Grammars/selective state schools before the local community gets a look-in, and all of the house prices /rents move up, will everyone be patting themselves on the back then?

Certainly in the areas I know the grammar schools don’t tend to have catchments & dc apply from all over & the outstanding state schools already have very high house prices.

Ilovemygoldfish · 10/12/2023 07:39

@jgw1 The Independent schools who opted out of TPS have struggled to find staff and many have left. There isn’t much of an option to leave it.

I hope at some point Labour realises that its legacy of PFI initiatives are one of the huge drains on school finances.

jgw1 · 10/12/2023 07:45

Ilovemygoldfish · 10/12/2023 07:39

@jgw1 The Independent schools who opted out of TPS have struggled to find staff and many have left. There isn’t much of an option to leave it.

I hope at some point Labour realises that its legacy of PFI initiatives are one of the huge drains on school finances.

PFI may be a huge drain on school finances, but it is significantly less than the cost increases imposed by the current government due to increases in employer pension contributions and less than the amount that will be raised by putting VAT on private school fees.

Heatherbell1978 · 10/12/2023 07:47

@namechangedforthisone35
I hear you. I have spreadsheets upon spreadsheets working out the finances for sending DS. Worst case we could not send DD as it's for specific reasons relating to DS that we've started this journey. But we really need to budget for both. And it'll be tight.

SheilaFentiman · 10/12/2023 07:51

A lot of parents won’t immediately pull out / there won’t suddenly be 40 in a state class. But fewer will start the journey and some will pull out at specific times eg after GCSEs.

EasternStandard · 10/12/2023 07:53

Ilovemygoldfish · 10/12/2023 07:22

It won’t happen. Most independent schools have been keeping data for the past 3/4 years on this issue and the response from parents is quite clear- it is unlikely we will carry on sending my child here. The various bodies that represent indie schools will lobby any government intensively about it and my prediction is that this will be the first thing Labour drops quietly. The issue is most prevalent where you have more than one child at a school. At the moment fee increases yoy are around 6-10%, adding another 20% on this would spell the end for a lot of schools.

Independent schools do much for the local areas and for students who do not attend their schools. They share facilities, provide support in running courses (particularly niche A level courses) and training opportunities for local teaching staff which are free to attend for local pupils/communities. They provide mock University interviews for local kids. They provide financial assistance and bursaries to students locally. This is part of the commitment to hold charitable status. What does everyone think will happen to all of this support if charitable status is removed? There is zero incentive to continue with it, and all but the very richest establishments will slowly withdraw. This cannot be good for the local community. Labour’s ‘plan’ is populist claptrap.

The danger is now. Some parents are already concerned about this and are already throwing money at achieving Grammar school places. If the policy is implemented, after the working independent school parents withdraw their kids from private schools and take up all of the places at the Grammars/selective state schools before the local community gets a look-in, and all of the house prices /rents move up, will everyone be patting themselves on the back then?

The overwhelming majority of parents I know with kids at independent schools work hard to send their kids there. Quite often because of the wrap around care provided which makes going to work easier. There are no oligarchs/fat cats/children of minor royals or Dukes etc. oh, and classes are sometimes already 30 at indie schools.

During the pandemic, independent schools carried on and supported students because they needed to justify the fees. Independent school teachers have no less caring responsibility/childcare issues than their state counterparts but still managed to put together a full timetable. During the pandemic my next door neighbour’s child (who attends a local state secondary school) had less than an hour a day timetabled for online tuition. Where was his support?

Before all independent schools are demonised, we need to consider what needs fixing in the state system that makes everyone so aggrieved about how other people choose to spend their money to opt out of it.

It’s an incredibly poor policy, it’s being used as there’s not much difference in what Labour can take and spend outside it.

I’m not sure they’ll drop it as they have very little else, although maybe they’ll see they’re just damaging a sector for little benefit or negative outcomes.

SheilaFentiman · 10/12/2023 07:54

Also, the ratio state: private is 93:7. So a state class of 31 would receive 2.3 more pupils, not 10, even if everyone left all at once, which won’t happen.

SheilaFentiman · 10/12/2023 07:57

I look at it like this. Labour will get in sometime next year, most likely October, maybe May. Most likely to do a bit of consulting/planning on the policy. Also, can only really apply from the start of a school year. So earliest it will kick in is October 2025.

If the DSes weren’t already in private secondary, we wouldn’t send them. As they are, we will manage. If I am right, DS1 will just be finishing up and DS2 will only have 3 years.

And I will be voting Labour.

Validus · 10/12/2023 08:01

We have offers from two privates for DD1. Hopefully we’ll get offer three next month as that’s the one she really really wants in her pocket.

But they are backups for state. There are only two state schools DD1 can cope with/can cope with her. If we can’t get in, I’ll have to suck up the cost whether VAT is added or not.

Clearly I have a lot riding on the state school lottery and appeals systems. Approximately £150000 over 5 years (let’s ignore 6th form) plus potential VAT to be precise…

Validus · 10/12/2023 08:02

SheilaFentiman · 10/12/2023 07:54

Also, the ratio state: private is 93:7. So a state class of 31 would receive 2.3 more pupils, not 10, even if everyone left all at once, which won’t happen.

But that depends on location. If Oxford has massive losses from private the state schools in the area would be overwhelmed. Doncaster, in contrast, would barely notice the blip.

Ilovemygoldfish · 10/12/2023 08:03

@SheilaFentiman if you average across all schools in all areas. The truth is, in most areas where you might find a good indie school, the good state schools that already exist there are likely to be at capacity. This is the issue. Pockets of schools suddenly needing to accommodate kids. And as I said, throw into the mix a load of parents who were going to spend £25k pa on education and can now throw the money at tuition/extra curricular activities and you’ll find the kids who really need the stability of a good school with engaged teachers pushed out to the margins.

The trouble with Labour talking constantly to itself is we end up with Brexit/Issues surrounding women’s rights etc all of which come out in the wash at a General election.

SheilaFentiman · 10/12/2023 08:06

Yes I agree that the 93:7 isn’t perfect and is different by area - but OP’s assumption that every pupil would leave is also not perfect. Also, LAs would distribute additions to an extent.

Summary: I don’t think there would be anything like 10 extra pupils per class overnight in any area.

IHateWasps · 10/12/2023 08:08

We're really Joe Very Average.

You're really not when you can afford to send two children(then three) to private school even with a staff discount. Do you honestly think that your average family can afford to do that?