Page 3 | 20% vat on fees

namechangedforthisone35 · 2023-12-10T06:17:41+00:00

*IF* Labour get in and *IF* the 20% does get added to fees, how many private school pupils will be moved to state? I have three kids (one not school aged yet) and in private school. One of many reasons because I didn't want them in a class of 30. I couldn't afford the vat increase so would have to move them but then that class of 30 becomes, what, 40?! In an already strained and unresourced system?! Wwyd? Y - I'd have to move kids to state N - I'll pay the vat

jgw1 · 10/12/2023 08:55

Ilovemygoldfish · 10/12/2023 08:48

@jgw1 i’m afraid you are going to spell out exactly how girls will be discriminated against following this event.…? I’m struggling to see how it could be done.

Unfortunately those advocating for it have failed to say how they intend to ensure girls get less education so they stay at home and make babies. Much like their other slogans, Stop the Boats, Knowing what a woman is and so on they are big on slogans and short on actually knowing what they mean and how to implement it.

poetrylover · 10/12/2023 08:55

I work in an independent school and they opted out of the TPS. Teachers are getting a much worse deal now. Then when everyone got a pay rise of around 6% this year, we got 3%. We also took a massive pay cut (I'm £3 or 4K worse off now) just to keep the school going. Our school is full of kids with hardworking, normal parents. Very few rich kids. All of our cuts are in case labour get in. It's not fun.

jgw1 · 10/12/2023 08:57

Oblomov23 · 10/12/2023 08:48

Interesting. I wonder whether Labour will push it or whether it will quietly just get dropped. I was talking to a Bursar of an independent school last week about it.

With a majority of over a 100 in the next parliament Labour will be able to put through everything that is in their manifesto with little difficulty.

ElevenSeven · 10/12/2023 08:58

@jgw1 so, no plans to do this then

jgw1 · 10/12/2023 08:59

user1497207191 · 10/12/2023 08:51

Not intertwined. There are private schools who aren’t charities who currently don’t charge vat. Likewise there are charities who do charge vat on certain activities but not on education. Being a charity doesn’t mean automatic vat exemption and a vat exemption doesn’t mean you’re a charity. They are quite distinct separate matters.

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There is an interesting unfair advantage arguement to be made about some private school businesses having charitable status and others not. I am almost surprised that the venture capitalists who own businesses that are disadvantaged by this are not including in their payments to the Tory party pleas to sort it out.

Ilovemygoldfish · 10/12/2023 09:00

@user1497207191 i agree but Labour started all of this by attacking ‘Charitable status’ of fee paying schools - hence my intertwining comment.

I think starting to bring in VAT on education is open to challenges from the wider sector.

jgw1 · 10/12/2023 09:01

ElevenSeven · 10/12/2023 08:58

@jgw1 so, no plans to do this then

I find it interesting to see what those who govern us actually think and frankly it is quite alarming.

Ilovemygoldfish · 10/12/2023 09:02

ElevenSeven · 10/12/2023 08:58

@jgw1 so, no plans to do this then

Glad it’s not just me who is failing to understand where the ‘Current government plans to discriminate against girls in education’ policy is then…

EasternStandard · 10/12/2023 09:03

Ilovemygoldfish · 10/12/2023 09:02

Glad it’s not just me who is failing to understand where the ‘Current government plans to discriminate against girls in education’ policy is then…

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Here too. I think it’s imagined

ElevenSeven · 10/12/2023 09:04

EasternStandard · 10/12/2023 09:03

Here too. I think it’s imagined

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There’s a few posters who hate the very existence of private schools and pop up on every single thread, interesting that they’re resorting to posting absolute guff in the absence of real arguments.

Arnoldthecat1 · 10/12/2023 09:04

I am worried. We are a bursary family so it's not just the additional 20% we have to worry about. It's also the potential removal/downgrade of the bursary amount that we have to worry about.

vatonschoolfees · 10/12/2023 09:06

On the contrary, the biggest difficulty for private schools is that there's no way to relinquish charity status (and stay in business - when a charity ceases to be, its assets have to be distributed to other charities with similar aims). This is partly why it's so "complicated" to remove charitable status from private schools, so that Labour have (yet again! This has been going on as far back as I can remember, and I'm old) backed off that part of the plan. (Another part is that charity law involves certain purposes, including education, being charitable. It's hard to make an exception for one kind of organisation, and you really, really don't want to stop education being a charitable purpose - that catches everything from universities to your local-author society.)

A private school that isn't a charity could apply to become one, but it's by no means clear that that's a good idea.

DarkAcademia · 10/12/2023 09:06

I’ll have to negotiate with the school. Kids are strong, academically, and we are stretched to the limit right now.

NotTheLastUserName · 10/12/2023 09:07

kezzykicks · 10/12/2023 07:14

All the schools in my local area are Ofsted good and all have good reputations, only 2, the outstanding, very heavily oversubscribed ones, of them have classes full with 30 children however. Most of them have class sizes of between 20-25. My dc go to one of the over subscribed schools but I have a job where I visit lots of local schools so see most of them are not full to capacity.

I bet the maths classes are waaayyy bigger than that.

SutWytTi · 10/12/2023 09:08

then that class of 30 becomes, what, 40?! Crazy maths!

If 7% of kids go to private school, even if EVERY private school pupil transferred, the increase on 30 would be 2, but no one is predicting 100% transfer, the expectation is that most will stay put.

Ilovemygoldfish · 10/12/2023 09:09

@jgw1 please read up on the link between Labour in the ‘70’s and the infiltration of the PIE group supported by very senior Labour politicians. It is not just the preserve of Tory Governments to have abhorrent affiliations.

Unless you can be specific about the claims all school age girls are about to suddenly become handmaids, I think we’ll leave it there. Happy to engage with specific facts should you have any.

DarkAcademia · 10/12/2023 09:10

But also, I think it will take years to go through. No way are fees getting raised next September- the bigger schools and school chains with the means to do so, will challenge it in the courts. If they can just spin it out for 3 or 5 years we’ll be out anyway.

I hate the levelling down philosophy. Removing access to the good schools will not magically make the inadequate schools better. Raising the quality of state education would put private schools out of business too, but no party ever suggests that, oddly.

Ilovemygoldfish · 10/12/2023 09:11

DarkAcademia · 10/12/2023 09:10

But also, I think it will take years to go through. No way are fees getting raised next September- the bigger schools and school chains with the means to do so, will challenge it in the courts. If they can just spin it out for 3 or 5 years we’ll be out anyway.

I hate the levelling down philosophy. Removing access to the good schools will not magically make the inadequate schools better. Raising the quality of state education would put private schools out of business too, but no party ever suggests that, oddly.

💯 this. The race to the bottom. Just bizarre.

SutWytTi · 10/12/2023 09:15

I don't really understand, if I'm honest, whether those who oppose the policy oppose it because they think it is practically flawed, or philosophically wrong.

If it won't come in for years and won't work anyway, there's no point worrying about it.

EasternStandard · 10/12/2023 09:19

Ilovemygoldfish · 10/12/2023 09:11

💯 this. The race to the bottom. Just bizarre.

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Yes to both pp. And depressing

StillWantingADog · 10/12/2023 09:24

My son is in year 6 and we have applied to the catchment state which is very good. There is also a well regarded private nearby. I am almost certain there will be more pressure on places for the state this year because of concerns about rising fees.
In the future the families who previously would have said their kids to private will
instead spend their money on houses in the better catchments, and poorer kids will get pushed out of the better areas and into the worse schools. I’m a Labour supporter but this policy is wrong wrong wrong.

EnglishMenHaveTails · 10/12/2023 09:26

I don't feel strongly either way on this matter but those of you who are against it need to think about the way you talk about it as I understand completely how it pisses people off (including me!). Talking about drawbridges being shut on you when for the vast majority of the country the drawbridge has always been shut and padlocked is a ridiculous way to talk, even if you are all average earning families (spoiler - you're not).

Yes, it may be jealousy that pisses people off about this way of talking but open your eyes a bit. Paying for your kids to have such an advantage when others are in classes of 35 (my kids have been throughout primary) is fundamentally unfair. I couldn't care less about whether vat should be charged by the way but if it is and lots of you need to pull kids out then to be honest, I don't care. Support your local schools, vote for parties who will support the state schools adequately and deal with it like the rest of us.

I can’t vote for a party who would effectively pull up the drawbridge on choice for the parents following behind me even though it would no longer affect me. @Ilovemygoldfish

Spendonsend · 10/12/2023 09:28

I oppose the policy because I think it is philophically wrong. I think education should be vat free, whether its nursery, swim lessons, university or gcse maths. I also believe state monopolies are wrong so having alternatives is good.

The maths of it and practicialities dont really bother me as state schools expand and contract all the time, are already offer uneven provision and should cost more so it doesnt bother me if it a bigger chunk of tax goes on state schools as they would have more pupils.

I dont think gloating that the independent sector has the last few maths teachers remaining is a great look though!

EnglishMenHaveTails · 10/12/2023 09:31

Spendonsend · 10/12/2023 09:28

I oppose the policy because I think it is philophically wrong. I think education should be vat free, whether its nursery, swim lessons, university or gcse maths. I also believe state monopolies are wrong so having alternatives is good.

The maths of it and practicialities dont really bother me as state schools expand and contract all the time, are already offer uneven provision and should cost more so it doesnt bother me if it a bigger chunk of tax goes on state schools as they would have more pupils.

I dont think gloating that the independent sector has the last few maths teachers remaining is a great look though!

Yes, exactly. Education provision probably should all be vat free but you don't win many friends with the arguments against it that are made by a lot of people on this thread.

Charlie2121 · 10/12/2023 09:35

My DS will be starting private school in September 2025. If VAT is charged we’ll need to find around 50k more over the course of his school life. That’s a lot of money for a policy that is essentially driven by the politics of envy.

The school has recently reopened their pay in advance scheme which allows you to pay up to 7 years in advance. As VAT is charged at the point of payment and not consumption it will mean that we should be able to avoid at least some of the additional cost.

I shall definitely not be voting Labour.