Page 5 | 20% vat on fees

namechangedforthisone35 · 2023-12-10T06:17:41+00:00

*IF* Labour get in and *IF* the 20% does get added to fees, how many private school pupils will be moved to state? I have three kids (one not school aged yet) and in private school. One of many reasons because I didn't want them in a class of 30. I couldn't afford the vat increase so would have to move them but then that class of 30 becomes, what, 40?! In an already strained and unresourced system?! Wwyd? Y - I'd have to move kids to state N - I'll pay the vat

Another76543 · 10/12/2023 11:00

Exasperatednow · 10/12/2023 10:55

There are falling school roles in many areas including London. They are talking about shutting schools and have shut kne near me recently. And talking about dhutting another. There is room.
If you don't like classes of 30 you could campaign to make state education better.

I’m guessing the schools which will be shut aren’t the higher performing ones though. The squeeze will be be on the best performing schools, which don’t have space.

Plenty of people are calling for improved state education. It’s just not happening though. The problems in the state sector run much deeper than a lack of funding unfortunately.

Heatherbell1978 · 10/12/2023 11:02

@vatonschoolfees you have said there exactly what DH and I have been talking about recently. We're in a pretty staunch middle class area surrounded by fancy cars, extensions being built, annual holidays to Disney etc. Friends have been quite shocked (outraged in one case) that we're planning to send DS private but it's exactly that. They could afford it but would rather do all the above.
I have one friend (the outraged one) who is very very against private school but has a DD with autism who is struggling hugely in the local high school. I think refusing to go to school most days. They could absolutely afford private, holiday 3 times a year etc, but her principles won't allow it. I struggle with this a bit if I'm honest.

EasternStandard · 10/12/2023 11:02

Another76543 · 10/12/2023 10:54

Only the Labour Party could have their flagship policy as one which seeks to harm an education system which serves children extremely well.

In the past, the party voted to ban all private schools (the shadow chancellor and deputy leader have both stated they want to do this.). They have since realised that this was never going to be possible.

Since they dropped this ridiculous idea, they declared that they would remove charitable status to achieve their tax aims. They’ve finally realised that this won’t work either, so have dropped this plan.

The party have now declared they will remove the education exemption from VAT legislation. This would be a move against EU law, despite the Labour Party already declaring that they don’t wish to deviate from EU legislation.

The party are running round like headless chickens and haven’t got a real clue on how to achieve their wishes to harm the private sector. It won’t even raise that much money - a tiny percentage of the state education budget. It’s nothing more than politics of envy and foot stamping “it’s not fair”.

I suspect that a lot of families will struggle through until natural breakpoints - 4, 11 and 16. At those points, the highly performing state schools will be swamped with applications. It’s already happening. A lot of families who were planning private secondary are now applying for the grammar schools. They have a higher chance of getting a place, because of tuition and by moving to/renting in grammar catchments. That takes away a place from someone else. The shift to state won’t affect all schools, as private school parents are unlikely to just settle for their local failing comp; they’ll throw money at tuition and house prices to get an advantage in accessing the best state schools.

I’m sure they’ll carry on trying to achieve their aim. What’s next after that though? That’s my concern. VAT on university fees because a lot of families can no longer afford that option? Private healthcare because not everyone can afford it? Luxury care homes because not all families can access that? Private nursery fees? Where will they draw the line?

Only the Labour Party could have their flagship policy as one which seeks to harm an education system which serves children extremely well.

Yes, it’s covering the fact there won’t be extra funding and the idea it’ll stretch to cover much at all is ludicrous

SutWytTi · 10/12/2023 11:03

It's their right, of course, but I sometimes feel part of what spreading the "private school parents are all rich" meme does for people is help them avoid facing the fact that they're not prioritising their children's education as highly as they might, which if they faced it would make them, rightly or wrongly, feel guilty. There, I've said it ;-) )

Good grief.

PuffPastryFluff · 10/12/2023 11:03

Just wondering how you know this

State schools are NOT going to improve as a result of this, nothing will change

My view is that parental input has a direct impact on schooling and if it is transferred to the state sector all the better.

I can't prove this of course but am looking forward to finding out.

vinoandbrie · 10/12/2023 11:09

@SutWytTi I get it, and you’re right. Why would anyone not directly impacted care about this.

The OP was about impact it will have, and I was setting out our family situation as an anecdote only. I certainly do not expect sympathy, my elder child is massively privileged whether at boarding or day independent school. We could scrape the extra £8k a year, I just really don’t want to pay that to a Labour government! All about choice, which we’re lucky to have.

It will be interesting from a political perspective as to how it will play out though - will it be seen in retrospect as a good thing that helped better fund state schools? Or as something that led to the closure of schools, especially struggling preps that take for example SEN kids that would find it challenging in state schools? Time will tell.

vatonschoolfees · 10/12/2023 11:10

PuffPastryFluff · 10/12/2023 11:03

Just wondering how you know this

State schools are NOT going to improve as a result of this, nothing will change

My view is that parental input has a direct impact on schooling and if it is transferred to the state sector all the better.

I can't prove this of course but am looking forward to finding out.

As I said in my post, the state school my child would have gone to has all the parental input it could possibly want already. Same is true for most of the schools ex-private school children will go to. Care to articulate how you see this "direct impact" working, in schools that already have all the reading volunteers, PTA members etc they want, where practically all the children already there have educated well-off parents? Be careful not to insult the latter in your answer...

Ilovemygoldfish · 10/12/2023 11:11

@RunSlowTalkFast I can only tell you about my child’s school experience thus far, but across more than one independent establishment, all of these are happening in the wider community. Plus the requirement demanded by the school to also volunteer in the community. My point is, it is not all private schools are raising entitled arseholes… and there are a lot of schools who share their wealth and facilities across the community. My own child has given up her time in state care homes, state primary schools and other places, all of which make her a more understanding and compassionate person.

Another76543 · 10/12/2023 11:11

PuffPastryFluff · 10/12/2023 11:03

Just wondering how you know this

State schools are NOT going to improve as a result of this, nothing will change

My view is that parental input has a direct impact on schooling and if it is transferred to the state sector all the better.

I can't prove this of course but am looking forward to finding out.

Even if every child from the private sector moved to state, it won’t make any difference. It’s a relatively small percentage of children (although would cost the state a lot). The state schools which private school parents will be looking at are those already with a high level of parental involvement (grammars, church schools etc).

EasternStandard · 10/12/2023 11:11

PuffPastryFluff · 10/12/2023 11:03

Just wondering how you know this

State schools are NOT going to improve as a result of this, nothing will change

My view is that parental input has a direct impact on schooling and if it is transferred to the state sector all the better.

I can't prove this of course but am looking forward to finding out.

Are you using a school that parents will pay extra via house prices to use?

That can lift standards in that particular school but another school that people don’t want to use won’t benefit

It depends which schools yours fall in to

Exasperatednow · 10/12/2023 11:12

Parental input does have an impact on school outcomes and irs not about joining the pta. There is lots of research on this. Look at the Sutton Trust.

Spendonsend · 10/12/2023 11:12

vinoandbrie · 10/12/2023 11:09

@SutWytTi I get it, and you’re right. Why would anyone not directly impacted care about this.

The OP was about impact it will have, and I was setting out our family situation as an anecdote only. I certainly do not expect sympathy, my elder child is massively privileged whether at boarding or day independent school. We could scrape the extra £8k a year, I just really don’t want to pay that to a Labour government! All about choice, which we’re lucky to have.

It will be interesting from a political perspective as to how it will play out though - will it be seen in retrospect as a good thing that helped better fund state schools? Or as something that led to the closure of schools, especially struggling preps that take for example SEN kids that would find it challenging in state schools? Time will tell.

This is a genuine question but what will you do with the money you would have spent on fees? Will some of it be spent on things that are vatable like nicer cars, goods etc or stamp dutyable or will it be more pensions with tax relief.

ElevenSeven · 10/12/2023 11:13

PuffPastryFluff · 10/12/2023 11:03

Just wondering how you know this

State schools are NOT going to improve as a result of this, nothing will change

My view is that parental input has a direct impact on schooling and if it is transferred to the state sector all the better.

I can't prove this of course but am looking forward to finding out.

Why do people think that private school parents will be able to somehow effect massive change at state schools? I don’t have any involvement with my DC’s school currently. If I was forced to send them to state school, I would be plugging any gaps with tutoring, not going into the Head’s office to demand change, that they presumably don’t have the budget for.

EasternStandard · 10/12/2023 11:14

Exasperatednow · 10/12/2023 11:12

Parental input does have an impact on school outcomes and irs not about joining the pta. There is lots of research on this. Look at the Sutton Trust.

It does although parents who invest in house prices tend to create their own more successful schools

We have that split in our area

Another76543 · 10/12/2023 11:15

Spendonsend · 10/12/2023 11:12

This is a genuine question but what will you do with the money you would have spent on fees? Will some of it be spent on things that are vatable like nicer cars, goods etc or stamp dutyable or will it be more pensions with tax relief.

Show quote history

A lot of parents would increase pension contributions, save the money to give their children to buy a house, or buy second properties as holiday homes/rentals.

SutWytTi · 10/12/2023 11:15

Spendonsend · 10/12/2023 11:12

This is a genuine question but what will you do with the money you would have spent on fees? Will some of it be spent on things that are vatable like nicer cars, goods etc or stamp dutyable or will it be more pensions with tax relief.

Show quote history

According to a pp, doing that means you don't really care about your kids' education!

It's their right, of course, but I sometimes feel part of what spreading the "private school parents are all rich" meme does for people is help them avoid facing the fact that they're not prioritising their children's education as highly as they might, which if they faced it would make them, rightly or wrongly, feel guilty. There, I've said it ;-) )

AIstolemylunch · 10/12/2023 11:17

Sixth Form is much higher than 8% private isn't it? So that might have an impact. My friend teaches as the local academy sixth form which is so oversubscribed for Maths A level, because they only have 3 teachers and no budget for any more, that they will now be asking for 9 at GCSE Maths as a cut off to keep numbers manageable (32 in each class).

Whereas the private sixth form nearby has 20+ Maths teachers and 8 dedicated to A level, so you need a 7 or 8 for Further Maths and class sizes of 12.

That made me sad, that a kid with an 8 in Maths GCSE who couldn't get into the private sixth form next year if parents couldn't pay (and no scholarships as they're all good at Maths now) wouldnt be able to continue at A level, or would have to go somehwere with really average Maths teaching (local college requires a 5 in GCSE Maths).

Heatherbell1978 · 10/12/2023 11:19

Why do people think that private school parents will be able to somehow effect massive change at state schools? I don’t have any involvement with my DC’s school currently. If I was forced to send them to state school, I would be plugging any gaps with tutoring, not going into the Head’s office to demand change, that they presumably don’t have the budget for

Exactly this. My DS has a tutor just now (in state primary) who spends 1.5 hours a week teaching him the stuff that his teacher can't because she has a class full of children with unmet needs who take up all her time. If he carries on in state (which we're not planning) we will carry on with tutors. DH and I both work FT and don't currently engage with the school much as we don't have time. That won't change.

honoldbrist · 10/12/2023 11:23

Ilovemygoldfish · 10/12/2023 07:22

It won’t happen. Most independent schools have been keeping data for the past 3/4 years on this issue and the response from parents is quite clear- it is unlikely we will carry on sending my child here. The various bodies that represent indie schools will lobby any government intensively about it and my prediction is that this will be the first thing Labour drops quietly. The issue is most prevalent where you have more than one child at a school. At the moment fee increases yoy are around 6-10%, adding another 20% on this would spell the end for a lot of schools.

Independent schools do much for the local areas and for students who do not attend their schools. They share facilities, provide support in running courses (particularly niche A level courses) and training opportunities for local teaching staff which are free to attend for local pupils/communities. They provide mock University interviews for local kids. They provide financial assistance and bursaries to students locally. This is part of the commitment to hold charitable status. What does everyone think will happen to all of this support if charitable status is removed? There is zero incentive to continue with it, and all but the very richest establishments will slowly withdraw. This cannot be good for the local community. Labour’s ‘plan’ is populist claptrap.

The danger is now. Some parents are already concerned about this and are already throwing money at achieving Grammar school places. If the policy is implemented, after the working independent school parents withdraw their kids from private schools and take up all of the places at the Grammars/selective state schools before the local community gets a look-in, and all of the house prices /rents move up, will everyone be patting themselves on the back then?

The overwhelming majority of parents I know with kids at independent schools work hard to send their kids there. Quite often because of the wrap around care provided which makes going to work easier. There are no oligarchs/fat cats/children of minor royals or Dukes etc. oh, and classes are sometimes already 30 at indie schools.

During the pandemic, independent schools carried on and supported students because they needed to justify the fees. Independent school teachers have no less caring responsibility/childcare issues than their state counterparts but still managed to put together a full timetable. During the pandemic my next door neighbour’s child (who attends a local state secondary school) had less than an hour a day timetabled for online tuition. Where was his support?

Before all independent schools are demonised, we need to consider what needs fixing in the state system that makes everyone so aggrieved about how other people choose to spend their money to opt out of it.

Couldn't agree more

vinoandbrie · 10/12/2023 11:28

@Spendonsend to be completely honest, I think it would go on investments. And perhaps a little bit on holidays, ie VATable!

LittleBearPad · 10/12/2023 11:29

Those of you only just managing now with fees, how will you cope with the generally above inflation annual fee increases let alone VAT?

The policy will come in. It will likely raise fees by about 12% and anyone assuming they can defray the cost with pay in advance be careful as this isn’t at all clear.

No one paying fees at independent schools is joe average and to claim otherwise is simply wrong. DC1 is at an indie and DC2 will go to one and we’ll pay the VAT.

Hopefully state school funding will improve so that the vast majority of children get a better education. And that £8k of VAT on fees of £40k can fund an EHCP application for a child with considerably fewer advantages than the children discussed here.

RunSlowTalkFast · 10/12/2023 11:30

ElevenSeven · 10/12/2023 11:13

Why do people think that private school parents will be able to somehow effect massive change at state schools? I don’t have any involvement with my DC’s school currently. If I was forced to send them to state school, I would be plugging any gaps with tutoring, not going into the Head’s office to demand change, that they presumably don’t have the budget for.

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My daughter goes to a state primary school and I agree. I'm neither middle class nor high earning but when I contact the school its about stuff for my daughter's benefit really, not anyone else. Getting her an invitation to the school orchestra, getting her a leadership position, etc. Also, we live in a fully selective area so she attends group tuition outside of school. But I guess grammar schools is a whole other discussion!

LittleBearPad · 10/12/2023 11:32

RunSlowTalkFast · 10/12/2023 11:30

My daughter goes to a state primary school and I agree. I'm neither middle class nor high earning but when I contact the school its about stuff for my daughter's benefit really, not anyone else. Getting her an invitation to the school orchestra, getting her a leadership position, etc. Also, we live in a fully selective area so she attends group tuition outside of school. But I guess grammar schools is a whole other discussion!

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Both of you can easily get involved if you wanted to. State schools always need governors ( which you don’t need to be a parent to do) and the PTA always needs help.

ElevenSeven · 10/12/2023 11:34

LittleBearPad · 10/12/2023 11:32

Both of you can easily get involved if you wanted to. State schools always need governors ( which you don’t need to be a parent to do) and the PTA always needs help.

Edited

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I don’t want to! That’s the whole point. It should run effectively without my (unqualified!) input. I work full-time, I have enough going on, thanks.

vinoandbrie · 10/12/2023 11:34

@LittleBearPad You’re right, the £8k on my child’s boarding school fees could in theory fund an EHCP application for a child who needs it.

But sadly, in our case at least, I am choosing not to pay that large amount, as I’m moving her to a day school where the VAT will be significantly lower.

I also don’t believe I’ve seen anything saying that for the VAT raised will necessarily be going into EHCP provision.