20% vat on fees

[namechangedforthisone35]

IF Labour get in and IF the 20% does get added to fees, how many private school pupils will be moved to state? I have three kids (one not school aged yet) and in private school. One of many reasons because I didn't want them in a class of 30. I couldn't afford the vat increase so would have to move them but then that class of 30 becomes, what, 40?! In an already strained and unresourced system?!

Wwyd?

Y - I'd have to move kids to state
N - I'll pay the vat

Tbh for many Labour members i know, there is no tangible difference between the Tories & Labour at the moment & whilst I have no doubt that Keir would be infinitely better than the corrupt / economically incompetent /BNP lite Tories, I really struggle to cheer on exactly the same tax, economic, hard brexit & destructive environmental policies of the Tories but wearing a red rosette.
Couple that with a culture war policy targeting 167k kids (the main ones hurt being SEN, ECHP, & those struggling most to afford it) whilst committing not a single penny towards education is simply regressive.
So, whilst i deplore everything the Tories stand for, I ain't gonna fool myself that voting Labour is anything more than, at best, a soft endorsement of a hard right Tory regime of the last 14 years, with a bit of spite against kids thrown in as red meat, which is just a cruel deceit of everything we believe in.

“For a "Labour party" member, you re doing a sterling job at getting the Tories back in, as you ve just rubbished Labours entire economic plans (so far released) which isn't really what a LP member should be doing.”

Of course a Labour member should be calling out the disingenuity and lies. That is exactly our job. We have to be better than the Tories and stand up to the crazy Memento brigade.
If someone wants to pay for their failed by the state SEN child to get somewhere and become more economic and productive and happier we should be applauding that. That child isn’t taking away from another child by doing that, far from it. It is the economic illiteracy and the dogma that grinds!

Very well spoken @Daddybegood

I feel exactly the same way.

Labour party members who are good at economics will be able to spot the massive holes with it as much as anyone else

Thankfully you can still become a Labour Party member if you have had a great education. Sadly it is unlikely you can stand as an MP because of the dogma around educational background. This is holding the Labour Party back.

‘If they said they were going to bulldoze Eton and jail all the parents you’d see similar support.’

get a grip.

‘If they said they were going to bulldoze Eton and jail all the parents you’d see similar support.’

I bet of the 1000 staff and 250 teachers at Eton most will have been Labour voters.

Momentum isn't making Labour policy anymore.

& LP members should be conducting criticism of the party via policy forums etc not publicly, you re doing the Tories job for them, hence the support from Tory supporters on here.

But all dressed up as "concerned citizens" its so transparent.

How would you know a Tory supporter? It is not that black and white in reality. There are far more people in the centre who are confused than you would like to believe.

If our party has chosen to alienate us middle class workers and cater to the Daily Mail readership instead, then what am I meant to think? If they value their votes more than ours, then what should we do? Genuine question?

@Absolutely45 "the support from Tory supporters on here"
I don't support the Tories however as a lifelong Labour voter I now don't support th either

It’s more that anyone with a grasp of economics and behaviour can see it’s a very poor policy

Ditto the Nom Dom one

Unfortunately anything that would have a decent impact on funds is out for whatever reason

It is also just a huge misunderstanding of what many private schools are. They are communities for teachers where they can often work in a nicer environment to better effect, primarily, without all the bashing in state schools. Often they will go there to benefit from the significant discounts for their own children, because you know teachers surprise surprise, value education.

With VAT one thing private schools could do is increase teacher discount to a high level for many and lower their salaries. As VAT would be payable on what the teachers pay in fees for their own kids, that will be inevitable. Overall outcome for HMRC, worse off. The case law supports this. Yet another thing the Labour Party have not even considered. Look at Pepper v Hart (1992)

And no, I am not a teacher. But generally speaking I would have thought that teachers are Labour supporters. 500000k votes right there and most will see through the no extra funds for Education. They are striking and so are the children. The kids way of striking is low attendance. The Labour Party have the facts.

And @Absolutely45 you have dismissed so many posts on here stating that at least an aim to rejoin the Single Market is very important to us so why would you deliberately go ahead with a policy of making Education VATable. It’s beggars belief.

I assure you absolutely45 that many Labour members are saying the same, I.e. that policy is not currently decided within Labour party forums but seemingly in Conservative party forums- & then Labour copying them...and you wonder why we don't like them.

And, if you think shutting down Labour members offering their view is the way forward - you will only alienate us further as actual policy will always trump tribal or rosette allegiance especially when the tribe is proposing such a ridiculous policy like VAT on education

Can you really expect Labour members to support or somehiw justify applying tax of 20% to board & lodging, a game of netball, pastoral care, mental health support, RE, HHH lessons, wraparound care, let alone KS maths, English etc - a tax which would only apply to kids who attend a private school that helps educate 167k uk kids - 40k entirely free, while the rest of the country (& the world for that matter) have all these educational or health services VAT free - and then not commit to spending a single penny more on education - really?

@Absolutely45
“Its actually the very people we need that leave their jobs to go over seas, Teachers, Nurses AHPs in particular, driven in part by low wages and better T&C's abroad, hence we then rob the 3rd world of their medics/teachers...boosting immigration and all the problems that causes with numbers now approaching 1m per year, thats economic illiteracy.”

Many teachers, nurses, doctors are far more driven by working conditions than pay. It is the working conditions this country provides that drives them away. It’s soul destroying for someone who has trained for years and wants to actually help people/children, to find that the realities of the job are so far from that. Because they cannot actually tangibly help their patients or speak to them directly or actually sort the underlying issue efficiently and quickly. Because of red tape primarily (computer says no, 5 minute slot only type thinking) and lack of funding/and primarily because of lack of communication and other services/departments failing them. If you bother to actually listen to what they have to say junior doctors leave because of lack of supervision, feeling unsafe, dissatisfaction of patients that come inherently dissatisfied because they have waited for hours/months/years. That is why they leave. Many feel they can’t provide their patients with efficient and safe care. Most people in these professions are driven by inherent patient and child/parent satisfaction and helping people.
Whereas when they work in the private sector of Education/Health they can actually help the patients and children and take their time/individualise the attention. That is why they go there, not for the pay.

Err hang on, i have NEVER said i want this policy come what may, i ve repeatedly said "Labour need to publish the research into it" to show their working.

So at best i'm 50/50 on this, though in principal, VAT should be charged on luxury services that are mainly enjoyed by the v wealthy.

But the anti's wont even consider that it may work, which makes me think that their opposition is simply because they don't want to pay any more..

Good luck persuading the UK population to re-join the SM, with commitment to FOM.
(Personally i'd join SM/CU in a shot but it wont happen)

Genuine LP members shouldn't be trashing every aspect of Labour economic policy in public (which is exactly what one did earlier) unless like the hard left, winning the argument is more important than winning a GE and they like being in a protest party.

Good luck persuading the UK population to re-join the SM, with commitment to FOM.

I see so many posts on here with posters putting links to Brexit regret polls

Why wouldn’t that translate to votes for it?

@Araminta1003 You re living in another world if you think that.
AHPs etc need to live, buy a house, food bills.

In my mums day, pay wasn't so important because she earned enough to do these things but have you wondered why the RCN went on strike for the first time ever? and are going to ballot for more strikes, Why Teachers and Doc's are also striking?

Vocation is a word used by people with too much money of their own.

Education isn't a luxury service hence why EU law exclude it from VAT. The bottom line is that English state education is in crisis but this is blatantly not the policy to revive it. It won't raise enough money and there are too many loopholes and exclusions that will end up being applied. I would be happier paying a ringfenced tax that is applied to all higher rate tax payers as that would raise more and it would be evenly spread. I'm just sick of Labour's dogged assertions that this policy will pay for FSM, mental health provision AND more teachers when in reality it won't. We can all see that apart from the Labour leadership.

Why should members of the LP not criticise policy publicly if they disagree with it and it is nonsensical? Isn't that just democracy and free speech?

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk-politics/2023/11/andrew-marr-labour-rejoin-european-single-market

Can’t remember how far left Andrew Marr sits these days. But he has a point.

“Good luck persuading the UK population to re-join the SM, with commitment to FOM.
(Personally i'd join SM/CU in a shot but it wont happen)”

https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/47997-britons-support-rejoining-the-single-market-even-if-it-means-free-movement

We need the carers etc. I don’t think it is such a hard sell as you make out

Absolutely45 does this mean that Labour members are bound by your 3 line whip on a (soon to expire) mumsnet thread ?
If the Tories tax & spend policy, zero additional committed spending on healthcare, education, social care & the environment, a hard brexit (costing £40billion) & a widening of the wealth gap between rich & poor are what you choose to support as a Labour member, then good luck going door to door in traditional Labour strongholds to advocate for it.
Meanwhile, having lost the whip, I may advocate for some more non-Tory policies that properly invests in public services & doesn't impose regressive (smokescreen) taxes on 5-18yo kids education to achieve it....and I also value my right to free speech as a Labour member too

Very funny!
Almost as funny as suggesting taxing some of the countries wealthiest parents is somehow "regressive"

You ve also completely missed that Labour will need to show their workings on this or expect it to be quietly dropped.

One reason the Tories are so far behind in the polls is that the Tories are publicly fighting each other, so you carry on and lets have another 5 years of the Tories (which is almost certainly what you really want) you could of course have slated this policy without mentioning your a LP member but didn't, i wonder why?

@Absolutely45 - it is £5 a month to be an LP member, hardly M5 style background checks. Anyone can sign up and from the accounts it is clear, they need and want the cash flow. And clearly also need the input. Or are you accusing some Labour Party members actually being Tories and trying to defeat the party from the inside. A bit Machiavellian?! There are hundreds of thousands of members anyway, of course they won’t all agree.

It is almost like you are now encouraging Mumsnet private school brigade to join the LP. And shout from the inside.

Didn't tory supporters join the Lab party to get Corbyn elected?

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/general-election-2015/politics-blog/11680016/Why-Tories-should-join-Labour-and-back-Jeremy-Corbyn.html