20% vat on fees

[namechangedforthisone35]

IF Labour get in and IF the 20% does get added to fees, how many private school pupils will be moved to state? I have three kids (one not school aged yet) and in private school. One of many reasons because I didn't want them in a class of 30. I couldn't afford the vat increase so would have to move them but then that class of 30 becomes, what, 40?! In an already strained and unresourced system?!

Wwyd?

Y - I'd have to move kids to state
N - I'll pay the vat

Of course it's financially useless but more importantly it's philosophically flawed. If the whole current trent in politics is that someone is discriminated, offended and oppressed the private school parent is the main villain in this world view.

@EnglishMenHaveTails The drawbridges of house prices and catchment areas are far more impenetrable though. If you can afford a £1.5m house, there’s a good chance that your local state school - certainly where I live - will reflect the more affluent and better resourced parent body in provision, classroom atmosphere and results. When we lived in an affluent area our local primary raised 50k for new playground equipment with ONE EVENT. 50k!!! It took our local primary where we live now 5 years of slog to raise 25k and it had to go on structural repairs to the school in the end because the council refused to pay.

Catchment areas are a waaaaaay bigger drawbridge than 200k on fees. Fees feel like a cheap talking point to rile working class voters up about something that isn’t actually the problem, and distract them from the much bigger (and more expensive) problem that is actually harming them - chronically underfunded schools because of too-low income tax for the rich.

There's a reason this policy is popular, and there's a reason the Tories are finding it hard to oppose this in the red wall.

There is no engagement with the politics of the issue. Persuading the 93% who already use state school to base their vote on this policy is just not going to happen.

Every time those who oppose the policy discuss it, they bring it to the attention of more people who then support the policy.

If private school fees already attracted VAT, would there be a widespread popular campaign to remove it? Very unlikely. The political reality is, this is a niche issue.

Any actual evidence of this

Both

But why do you say it will take years to come in?

Agree it won’t work, but not sure what you mean by it not working

Education should be VAT free but the fees charged by private schools aren't solely for education - they are also paying for spectacular extracurricular resources, nice grounds, playing fields, lunches (our school fees include a lunch that I would estimate costs about £5 per head per day to provide). I am broadly supportive of the policy because certainly an Eton-style education is a massive luxury that should be taxed but I think there should be a VAT free element. E.g. if divide the salary bill for teaching staff - just for their teaching hours so if a staff member spends 20 hours in the classroom and additional hours supporting extracurricular activities/pastoral stuff then only the 20 hours counts - divided by the total annual expenditure of the school on everything they do, and that percentage of the fee should be VAT free. You could make it revenue-neutral by making the VAT rate on the taxable element higher.

There are some tiny private schools that operate on a shoestring and the fees are no higher than the amount of state-funding per head but they are offering a choice to parents which isn't available in the state sector. I would like the policy to be structured so that those schools are exempt if they are genuinely just doing education without all the extras

@EasternStandard It will get challenged and dragged through the courts - I am sure right now that the various independent schools associations are putting together a well thought out plan for legal objections. I just don’t think they’ll be able to do it quickly.

As someone above said, it’s a niche issue, and may well get swept under the carpet if it proves too much of a headache.

Exactly @SutWytTi Does anyone think the Tories would take VAT off if they get back in? They wouldn’t. It’s an anomaly that there isn’t VAT on this entirely optional enhanced service, not vice versa.

Yes there will be some drafting and thinking so that eg SEN schemes are not caught, but there are always oddities in Vat (tampon tax, Jaffa cakes etc)

Again, private school parent and labour voter.

Yes, for sure. If there were local policies being brought in which made admission into these schools be decided on a lottery rather than distance, and parents started talking about drawbridges being pulled up on them because of this, then yes I would argue against them too. As someone has just said, it really is a niche issue but if people argue against it by talking about unfairness and penalising 'average earning' people who are just 'working hard' and 'making sacrifices' then you are going to annoy people who are stuck in the schools that you are all so desperate against paying your way out of having to attend.

if people argue against it by talking about unfairness and penalising 'average earning' people who are just 'working hard' and 'making sacrifices' then you are going to annoy people who are stuck in the schools that you are all so desperate against paying your way out of having to attend

Yes this is the political difficulty with framing opposition to the policy.

Those opposed are perceived as saying it's unfair to reduce my child's unfair educational advantage

I don't think the idea of all the rich kids moving back into state is the wonderful prospect that some people think it is. Be abuse at the other end this country is pushing to drop sen school places and lower the number of ehcps. More kids who should be sen schools with no support and cram in the bright ones with the adverage ones. Who's going do well in a class of 30 with that mix?

My dd is 9 very bright. Has ASD right at the cut off point. Has a ehcp I appealed for. No TA. I have applied for and just won that. Neither the school nor the LA want this new EHCP. I have to start judicial review to get it issued. A year to appeal. Five weeks to wait for the new ehcp. Judicial review could be as long as a piece of string.

Meanwhile she is hitting other kids, school say its not a big deal, parents are complaining about her and this proactive working class can't do any more with knowledge and the law on my side.

It's a wonder brave new world. Inclusion. Be careful what you wish for. My girl is too bright for a state SEN school. Again the laws on my side there. It's indi sen or she can not be moved. Not she will moved anyway. State sen school can not meet a child like mines needs. Only indi sen does. Because we're being inclusive she isn't going anywhere.

Well, we are considering taking our older child out of boarding and putting her into an independent day school for next September. Having to suddenly find VAT on £40k pa is just obscene, and I’m not doing it.

Our younger child we are tutoring for the 11+, as we are in a grammar school area. I think Labour will get in, this 20% on fees will be one of the first things they do (like Tony Blair with assisted places in 1997), and I pay enough in taxes already to be honest.

I live in a town that has two private schools. It also has an outstanding state school, houses in the catchment area for the outstanding school are flying up (they have always been high but this is crazy). I think it speaks for itself

It’s an anomaly that there isn’t VAT on this entirely optional enhanced service

It’s not an anomaly; education is specifically exempted under existing VAT legislation, alongside university fees. VAT on education is also not allowed under EU legislation, by my understanding. Whilst we are no longer in the EU, the Labour Party have already stated they don’t wish to deviate from EU law. The Labour Party simply do not understand the nuances of this area - it was only 4 years ago that the party voted to ban all private schools, seemingly blind to the fact that this would, in practice, be impossible.

Having to pay VAT on a luxury service not affordable for most is definitely tiny violin territory for me.

Private education is a luxury and as such should be taxable.

Having to suddenly find VAT on £40k pa is just obscene, and I’m not doing it. This is why those who oppose the policy will struggle to gather much support from outside those directly affected - £40k/yr is above the average wage, people in difficult circumstances just won't see why this is their concern, and really they'd be right, it isn't.

“It’s not an anomaly; education is specifically exempted under existing VAT legislation, alongside university fees.”

Yes, I understand this, as I thought might be clear from my comments on SEN schemes.

However, looking at it through another lens of what private school provision is: it is an enhanced service that is inaccessible for many, so why should such a service be VAT free?

Some food is VAT free and some is not, for example.

I hope that is clearer.

DyslexicPoster agree, the idea that kids currently in private schools moving into state schools will be good for the state schools is pie in the sky. My kid who went through private school did do partly because he had special educational needs that the private school could meet as a matter of course, but that could only have been met in the state school he'd otherwise have gone to if I had been extremely sharp-elbowed and advocated for him non -stop. Not only did I not want to do that (it might well have meant me going part time at work, so less tax revenue, too) but also I didn't like the idea that any extra teacher attention or resources I secured for him would likely have meant less for other children. If I'd had to send him there, though, you had better believe I would have done whatever it took to get his needs met.

At the same time, the presence of another well -supported kid or middle-class parent would not have benefited the school at all - being a school in a solid middle-class area near a university, it had those in droves already.

As for voting based on who I think likely to improve state schools, I've always done that anyway. (It would be interesting, in fact, to survey how people with kids in private school prioritise state education spending as a factor, compared with people with the same income but no kids in private school. I wouldn't mind betting a small amount that the former group prioritises state education spending higher, even if you don't exclude voters with kids in state school from the other group. Private school parents may not be on average earnings, but spending that amount of money on education when you could instead choose to spend it on cars, holidays, pension etc is generally a strong statement of education being important to you. I know most people couldn't afford private education, but at the same time, there are a lot of people who could if they really wanted to, choosing not to because they prioritise other things. I've seen it here often, usually as people saying they "can't afford" private school after saying enough to make clear that they are in a better position to do so than I've ever been. It's their right, of course, but I sometimes feel part of what spreading the "private school parents are all rich" meme does for people is help them avoid facing the fact that they're not prioritising their children's education as highly as they might, which if they faced it would make them, rightly or wrongly, feel guilty. There, I've said it ;-) )

I agree with this and I'm planning to send DS private next year. For us school fees are a LOT cheaper (£12k primary, £16k secondary) and whilst I still acknowledge our privilege in being able to afford this, it's a world away from some of the fees I see quoted on MN. And we will scrimp to do this. If you can afford £40k pa for one child you're in a completely different bracket to start with.

@Ilovemygoldfish
Independent schools do much for the local areas and for students who do not attend their schools. They share facilities, provide support in running courses (particularly niche A level courses) and training opportunities for local teaching staff which are free to attend for local pupils/communities. They provide mock University interviews for local kids. They provide financial assistance and bursaries to students locally.

I feel like they need to advertise this more as I've never heard of any of this locally. Is it just at secondary school level? As my daughter is nearing the end of primary and has never used facilities at a private school and her state primary is a teaching school itself so I don't think they are sending their teachers to the local private schools for training.

The only thing I've seen offered by the private schools for other kids is some quite expensive holiday clubs.

I am sure right now that the various independent schools associations are putting together a well thought out plan for legal objections.

sadly they are not

Only the Labour Party could have their flagship policy as one which seeks to harm an education system which serves children extremely well.

In the past, the party voted to ban all private schools (the shadow chancellor and deputy leader have both stated they want to do this.). They have since realised that this was never going to be possible.

Since they dropped this ridiculous idea, they declared that they would remove charitable status to achieve their tax aims. They’ve finally realised that this won’t work either, so have dropped this plan.

The party have now declared they will remove the education exemption from VAT legislation. This would be a move against EU law, despite the Labour Party already declaring that they don’t wish to deviate from EU legislation.

The party are running round like headless chickens and haven’t got a real clue on how to achieve their wishes to harm the private sector. It won’t even raise that much money - a tiny percentage of the state education budget. It’s nothing more than politics of envy and foot stamping “it’s not fair”.

I suspect that a lot of families will struggle through until natural breakpoints - 4, 11 and 16. At those points, the highly performing state schools will be swamped with applications. It’s already happening. A lot of families who were planning private secondary are now applying for the grammar schools. They have a higher chance of getting a place, because of tuition and by moving to/renting in grammar catchments. That takes away a place from someone else. The shift to state won’t affect all schools, as private school parents are unlikely to just settle for their local failing comp; they’ll throw money at tuition and house prices to get an advantage in accessing the best state schools.

I’m sure they’ll carry on trying to achieve their aim. What’s next after that though? That’s my concern. VAT on university fees because a lot of families can no longer afford that option? Private healthcare because not everyone can afford it? Luxury care homes because not all families can access that? Private nursery fees? Where will they draw the line?

@EnglishMenHaveTails my nearest local state secondary school has metal detectors on the door and very poor educational outcomes. For the record, I live in a Labour controlled authority. The next nearest two secondaries are similar and ALL have next to no diversity and The whole area is served well by the EDL, GB news etc. I made a choice to send my child elsewhere and I make no apologies for doing so. I have also worked very hard to do so, waited to start a family only when I knew I could afford private schooling and yes sacrifices have been made along the way. Not all parents send their kids to private schools for the cache/small class sizes there are other factors at play.

My point with reference to ‘Drawbridges’ is that I want other parents to be able to afford to choose if that is what they need to do - see also the points made by other posters about SEN requirements. I’ve also witnessed the difference a bursary makes to a child’s education and I remain concerned about the future viability of these.

Labour squandered the chance to improve education after 3 terms in power - and they didn’t try and disrupt the private sector then (probably because so many of the cabinet had enjoyed a private education) I’m not sure upon what evidence they think it’s a good idea now.

I’ve no idea about your personal circumstances and I’m sorry that you are not happy with your child’s educational experience, but with the greatest respect, it’s not the fault of private school parents who are not taking up one of your local school places.

There are falling school roles in many areas including London. They are talking about shutting schools and have shut kne near me recently. And talking about dhutting another. There is room.
If you don't like classes of 30 you could campaign to make state education better.

Or just keep paying private.

State schools are NOT going to improve as a result of this, nothing will change.