Page 2 | 20% vat on fees

namechangedforthisone35 · 2023-12-10T06:17:41+00:00

*IF* Labour get in and *IF* the 20% does get added to fees, how many private school pupils will be moved to state? I have three kids (one not school aged yet) and in private school. One of many reasons because I didn't want them in a class of 30. I couldn't afford the vat increase so would have to move them but then that class of 30 becomes, what, 40?! In an already strained and unresourced system?! Wwyd? Y - I'd have to move kids to state N - I'll pay the vat

jgw1 · 10/12/2023 08:12

On the subject of school rolls.

UK birth rates started declining in 2012 having reason since 2002.
That means that an average primary school already has falling rolls and that will continue into secondary schools in the coming years.

Of course some in the current government are aware of this, which is why they are advocating a policy of educating girls less so they are more likely to stay at home and have babies.

ModeWeasel · 10/12/2023 08:13

Labour are definitely going to do this. Keep an eye on what they do about business rates too - that would mean a massive cost increase and fee raises in addition to those due to VAT.

Ilovemygoldfish · 10/12/2023 08:14

@SheilaFentiman I am an independent school parent. I thank my lucky stars this is the final year of fees a but I can’t vote for a party who would effectively pull up the drawbridge on choice for the parents following behind me even though it would no longer affect me.

It’s an emotive policy that will have a long term effect on the wrong part of society. Labour needs to open its discussions beyond its own champagne socialist bubble. Perhaps when they can’t get their own kids into Greycoats/London Oratory/Camden Girls etc because the Ex-indie school parents are already there will they realise.

Ilovemygoldfish · 10/12/2023 08:17

@jgw1 How is the current government actively educating girls less? I am struggling to see how they are singling out any one particular sex to discriminate against?

vatonschoolfees · 10/12/2023 08:24

Many of the people who think VAT on private school fees is a great idea will be laughing out of the other side of their mouths if/when, to avoid a mess of inconsistency about what kinds of paid-for education are VATable (and to raise much-needed revenue), VAT is also added to university fees, tutoring fees, sports club fees, etc etc. Don't think it couldn't happen...

ElevenSeven · 10/12/2023 08:27

No one I know at my DC’s school is intending on moving them. People will suck up the cost and make changes elsewhere if necessary, eg we are not moving house for now.

State education will not improve one jot based on this policy.

MintJulia · 10/12/2023 08:28

N. I'll pay the VAT.

But if it happens, the chances are it won't be until spring 25. Labour will then have to get the changes through so shouldn't affect fees until Sept 25 meaning DS will only have year 13 to go.

So it could be an extra £3,600 for us.

Worth it to avoid uprooting him from an environment he has been happy in since he was 11. And staying with an A'level study group of 5 rather than 30.

If Labour do something about university loan interest rates, that will more than offset it, so I'm not going to worry about it.

jgw1 · 10/12/2023 08:28

Ilovemygoldfish · 10/12/2023 08:17

@jgw1 How is the current government actively educating girls less? I am struggling to see how they are singling out any one particular sex to discriminate against?

Some in the current government are advocating for such a policy.

ElevenSeven · 10/12/2023 08:30

jgw1 · 10/12/2023 08:28

Some in the current government are advocating for such a policy.

Show quote history

Who?

mondaytosunday · 10/12/2023 08:32

My dd left school last year - fees were edging towards £25k. My son left school at 16 and went to college. I couldn't afford one set of VAT let alone two.

Feralgremlin · 10/12/2023 08:32

We will probably try to ride out the last 6 years of DS’s education by making cuts elsewhere so that we can keep him at his current school. If that becomes untenable, I will more than likely home ed him. There just isn’t the right level of SEN provision in our local schools to provide him with a decent education.

MintJulia · 10/12/2023 08:34

The other issue I would have is that none of the local state secondary schools offer A'levels in Maths, Further Maths and Physics so I couldn't move ds even if I wanted to.

The closest is 19 miles away and there's no bus.

Something perhaps Labour should consider if they want a STEM-based economy. Idiots!

Ilovemygoldfish · 10/12/2023 08:34

@ElevenSeven no one is openly admitting they might I think you’ll find. Parents at Westminster/Eton etc won’t be affected. It’s the smaller schools who have a marginal situation that are the issue - especially smaller preps with maybe one form intake. You might find yourself being in the minority being able (or willing) to pay only to find the school cannot afford to continue. And so now you are looking for a state school (or other) place for your child. This is about balancing school books and the knock-on effect of only a very modest % of parents no longer affording the fee increase. It doesn’t have to be everyone.

EasternStandard · 10/12/2023 08:36

Ilovemygoldfish · 10/12/2023 08:34

@ElevenSeven no one is openly admitting they might I think you’ll find. Parents at Westminster/Eton etc won’t be affected. It’s the smaller schools who have a marginal situation that are the issue - especially smaller preps with maybe one form intake. You might find yourself being in the minority being able (or willing) to pay only to find the school cannot afford to continue. And so now you are looking for a state school (or other) place for your child. This is about balancing school books and the knock-on effect of only a very modest % of parents no longer affording the fee increase. It doesn’t have to be everyone.

Any sector hit by 20% would see closures. The smaller preps will find it hard. Idiots doing this because there’s not much else to use as a pretence of greater funding

jgw1 · 10/12/2023 08:38

ElevenSeven · 10/12/2023 08:30

Who?

Show quote history

It was one of the key topics at the NatC event last spring attended by several government ministers and Tory MPs. Some spoke on the subject, others by attending and the PM by not condemning it, when given the opportunity presumably indicated their agreement.

jgw1 · 10/12/2023 08:39

EasternStandard · 10/12/2023 08:36

Any sector hit by 20% would see closures. The smaller preps will find it hard. Idiots doing this because there’s not much else to use as a pretence of greater funding

Show quote history

There were indeed closures following hte 40% employer pension contribution increase in 2019 as well.

Strangely I don't remember much anguish about that. And that increase was of course unfunded for state schools, effectively imposing a tax on them as well.

Ilovemygoldfish · 10/12/2023 08:43

@vatonschoolfees it’s absolutely the argument I’d be making if I was heading up the Independent schools representative bodies.

There are two issues which are sort of intertwined - charitable status and the VAT. Remove charitable status (which negates the requirement to add VAT) schools can legitimately (maybe not morally) all of the community support and activity it brings. No one wins. Remove charitable status solely for the purpose to compel independent schools to add VAT and you’d have to say why don’t universities have to do the same? They are either charging fees or they are not. Labour then loses a great swathe of support from students.

I seriously hope someone has gamed this out at Millbank Towers…

user628468523532453 · 10/12/2023 08:44

namechangedforthisone35 · 10/12/2023 07:31

@Heatherbell1978 I agree completely. I work at my kids school so we're sending them already on a staff discount, it's a huge sacrifice for us to find the rest. Yet we're put into the "rich got money" club by everyone else. We're really Joe Very Average.

Median pre-tax salary is £35k.

So that's c£26.5k post-tax.

If you can afford annual fees up to £18k pa for 3 children out of your post-tax earnings, you are in no way shape or form Joe Very Average.

EasternStandard · 10/12/2023 08:44

Ilovemygoldfish · 10/12/2023 08:43

@vatonschoolfees it’s absolutely the argument I’d be making if I was heading up the Independent schools representative bodies.

There are two issues which are sort of intertwined - charitable status and the VAT. Remove charitable status (which negates the requirement to add VAT) schools can legitimately (maybe not morally) all of the community support and activity it brings. No one wins. Remove charitable status solely for the purpose to compel independent schools to add VAT and you’d have to say why don’t universities have to do the same? They are either charging fees or they are not. Labour then loses a great swathe of support from students.

I seriously hope someone has gamed this out at Millbank Towers…

They’re only going with the VAT part now as charitable status too complicated

user1497207191 · 10/12/2023 08:48

YireosDodeAver · 10/12/2023 06:28

Not all schools will add 20%.

Firstly, once vat is chargable on fees, vat paid by the school on supplies can be reclaimed. The majority of school expenditure is obviously on teacher salaries which is irrelevant for that but I would guess at least a quarter of the hike can be absorbed that way. Private schools can also make savings to keep fee increases as low as possible. A well-managed school could probably juggle these two things to keep the hike to around 10% rather than 20%.

For most families with kids in private schools that 10% will not be a dealbreaker. They will make savings elsewhere and keep their kids in school.

Even if pessimistically a quarter of the pupils currently in private schools move over to the state system, that would be a change from 92% state + 8% private to 94% state + 6% private so the proportional increase in stare school numbers works out as an extra 0.65 pupils per class of 30 in the average state school, ie about two-thirds of classrooms get one extra pupil.

It's not a big deal and your concept of class sizes leaping from 30 to 40 is ridiculous - there aren't that many privately educated kids.

Your numbers assume ex private kids are split evenly throughout the country. They aren’t. Some/most state schools will get no ex private pupils. Some state schools in close proximity to one or more private schools will get lots of extra pupils, causing strain and bigger class sizes.

Ilovemygoldfish · 10/12/2023 08:48

@jgw1 i’m afraid you are going to spell out exactly how girls will be discriminated against following this event.…? I’m struggling to see how it could be done.

Oblomov23 · 10/12/2023 08:48

Interesting. I wonder whether Labour will push it or whether it will quietly just get dropped. I was talking to a Bursar of an independent school last week about it.

Ilovemygoldfish · 10/12/2023 08:49

@EasternStandard even more bonkers.

Longma · 10/12/2023 08:51

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines. at the request of it's author.

user1497207191 · 10/12/2023 08:51

Ilovemygoldfish · 10/12/2023 08:43

@vatonschoolfees it’s absolutely the argument I’d be making if I was heading up the Independent schools representative bodies.

There are two issues which are sort of intertwined - charitable status and the VAT. Remove charitable status (which negates the requirement to add VAT) schools can legitimately (maybe not morally) all of the community support and activity it brings. No one wins. Remove charitable status solely for the purpose to compel independent schools to add VAT and you’d have to say why don’t universities have to do the same? They are either charging fees or they are not. Labour then loses a great swathe of support from students.

I seriously hope someone has gamed this out at Millbank Towers…

Not intertwined. There are private schools who aren’t charities who currently don’t charge vat. Likewise there are charities who do charge vat on certain activities but not on education. Being a charity doesn’t mean automatic vat exemption and a vat exemption doesn’t mean you’re a charity. They are quite distinct separate matters.