Sick and tired of this... [sad]

[DemiLee33]

Hello everyone and thanks for listening.

I am at breaking point with my son's secondary school teachers/policies.

For I.E for ridiculous, unwarranted punishments.
Detentions for not having a pen or a shirt untucked.
Most good students in secondary schools are in I.e at least once within their first 2 years of starting. Most students have had at least 10 detentions by the time they have completed year 8.

Once again I have been in meetings, lodged complaints, cried on the phone to them. My son has cried and is so low in mood now because he feels beaten down by them. I have had 2 teachers admit to me that a lot of 'normal' 'good' kids are in i.e or on report.

Their policies are awful! Nationwide, secondary schools are so extreme with their punishments for such ridiculous, unwarranted reasons. Some schools have even started saturday morning detentions!!
I am so tired of not having my voice heard. Anyone else feeling like this? I have started up a fb group to vent about this and it may take off it may not. I have emailed relevant organisations and lodged complaints but these schools are a law unto themselves.

Sorry for moaning
xx

@DisorganisedOrganiser of course there needs to be some guideline about skirt length even for staff. Obviously 99.9% of teachers are professional and wouldn't need any such guidelines, but some don't get it. I had a PGCE trainee who insisted on wearing skirts so short she was unable to effectively teach practical elements in Drama without her arse showing. I'm afraid I had to 'police' it.

OP you really do need to be more specific then if you want better advice. If you're not upset about detentions for lack of equipment, what are you upset about?

P.S buy him some more pens

In ds’s case it was explained that there were no exceptions Ds should have noticed other pupils turning round.

He got a detention for not having the right PE kit.
There were so many PE kits that we had looked at the time table and thought we had packed the right one. Remember this was the first week.

For the majority of children I doubt they go into school each lesson determined to get a detention.

Who notices a shirt becoming untucked.

Or if you haven’t understood something you ask a friend sitting beside you for their take on what you are supposed to be doing.
I know I used to get told off for this.
The teacher would shout at me for not listening but I heard perfectly what they had said. I just didn’t understand it.

Dd went to a very very relaxed school.

She could have 10 pens in the morning and by 11oclock have lost them all.

Teachers knew that was just what she did. Lots of other children did the same. Huge number of students who suffered from different forms of dyslexia
It was a specialised school so academic lessons were only for part of the week and then the students concentrated on what they were there for.

It was a very happy school with really no problems. The school was the complete opposite to a normal secondary school in its ethos and its pupils didn’t even try to push boundaries because there really was no point.

As parents we agreed our children wouldn’t last 5 minutes in a normal school. They would have had 22 detentions each by lunch time.

P.S buy him some more pens

Abso-bloody-lutely

Buy him a pencil case with several pens. Along with pencils, a ruler, rubber, sharpener at the very least. It's not a massive shock that he's going to need these at school is it!!!

Oliversmumsarmy your sons school sounds AWFUL.
Obviously the rules are relaxed for students who need it at our school.

But I firmly believe a re think is needed on the zero tolerance policies because it groups together slight discrepancies compared with much bigger behaviours in children which should be punished
Except it doesn't.

Whether people personally agree on a zero tolerance behaviour policy or not, a detention for equipment or uniform is categorically NOT lumping those behaviours in with larger scale behaviours such as verbal abuse.

The fact you're repeatedly claiming it does is what is prompting some of the replies.

As MitziK has shared experiences similar to mine in thay many of the things you've claimed you'd support a detention for are more serious than a detention in most secondary schools.

A detention for lack of equipment or uniform is fairly typical in many secondary schools. It's not some weird quirk of these self styled 'zero tolerance' schools.

Seriously my kids will not be staying for a detention over a untucked shirt or no pen, talk to me when they do something serious. I feel embarrassed for your kids, mumsnet needs a day in the real world

A detention for lack of equipment or uniform is fairly typical in many secondary schools. It shouldn’t be. That is what is wrong with the system.

The students ARE being taught to think for themselves, that's the whole point! They need to think that, if they break the rules there are consequences

But in the real world these rules don’t exist and if they do then someone might mention that a shirt has become untucked etc but apart from that no punishment would be given.

Why do yr 12 &13 pupils have to dress as if they are “office ready”

I think there is a conspiracy somewhere.
I don’t think all these rules actually teach pupils to think for themselves.

It is just another way to stop children thinking. Their brains are so full of the many many rules and regulations and trying not to break them they haven’t time to think about what is actually going on.

@Growuppeople don't feel embarrassed for my kids. Feel embarrassed for your own parenting if your kids are going to school without a pen and you think it's ok for them not to be pulled up on it.

So what do children get for verbal abuse?

Growuppeople, schools (and MN) seem to think that in all jobs in the real world you must always wear a suit and tie with the correct shoes and a tucked in shirt. If you rock up without a pen you will be fired.

We wear jeans and trainers in one of my jobs. Ties are not allowed in most areas (due to health and safety reasons!). The more casual the better. You’d be laughed out of the shop in a suit. Forgetting a pen. Meh. Don’t have the right protracted? Nobody cares as they are actually busy working and not caring about petty rules (which they are encouraged to challenge).

@Oliversmumsarmy isolation or exclusion. Read your school's behaviour policy

Another job I have I work in an office at times. Lots of people seem to be dressed for a night out on the town. Low cut tops and short skirts. Again, nobody cares. No ties though and lots of untucked shirts .

Seriously my kids will not be staying for a detention over a untucked shirt or no pen, talk to me when they do something serious
When they don't attend then it just follows up the behaviour policy. Schools don't require parental consent for detentions.

DisorganisedOrganiser
School publishes rules. Students push rules. Twas ever thus. We were the same in school. Fashions change, ways to push the rules change.

Small sanction and a reminder of the rules and then move on. No ruined relationships. Staff and students still get on with each other.

I've worked in schools where SLT were ineffective and bowed to parents deciding which rules their children would/wouldn't follow. Never again. Too many behaviour issues, weak SLT, more time having to negotiate basic manners from students than teaching. I wouldn't want to work in a strongly zero tolerance type chain, but I have some sympathy with why some schools go down that route.

I teach. I have a spectacularly disorganised son who attends the school where I teach.

If he doesn't have a pen, he'll get a detention. So he makes sure he has his pencil case sorted the night before (MULTIPLE pens) & I nag him a bit. Job done.

Also, if you have this rule, then kids who do have a pen somewhere at the bottom of their bag look for it before loudly announcing they don't have one, so you don't have to faff about finding them one. They take responsibility.

I am scatty myself about pens etc (it's obvious where ds gets it from) so I cut a bit of slack. There are a dozen or so boxes (you know the small flip top ikea boxes?) on a side table in my classroom, each containing pens/pencils/highlighters/glue/scissors/rubber/sharpener.

My rule is that if you haven't got equipment, just grab a box on the way in & we are good. Disrupt the lesson wittering about your lack of equipment & I'll give you that detention. Which you can spend re-stocking the boxes for me from my cupboard.

I teach abroad & our resources are brilliant. In the U.K., I'd be buying all those pens etc.

Also, detention is not exactly water boarding or picking oakum! It's 10 minutes to half an hour reflecting on how you should probably get your shit together in future. Reasonable.

@DisorganisedOrganiser if you're plumber but rock up without your tools then you would get fired. Don't take it as literally as a pen.

At school students need pens. If they don't have one they cannot do the work.

If a plumber had no tools he could not do his work.

Think a little more broadly for goodness sake.

What about other health and safety reasons?

No boots, no hard hat, no gloves, no HV - no job.

No defenders, goggles, gauntlets or welding mask - no job.

Hair tied back, no clothes tucked in around machinery - or no job.

No jewellery or watches - or no job.

DemiLee33 - you need to help your son understand that he needs to follow the rules. Help him be more organised. Explain that actions have consequences. Hopefully, after all this he won't forget his pen ever again - and if he gets another detention then the only person to blame is himself. And how difficult is it to tuck his shirt in? The school isn't asking for the impossible.

I think you should be very thankful that your son goes to a school with a good behaviour policy with teachers who aren't afraid to apply it.

If you really don't like this school then I suggest you send him to one of those schools where kids don't obey the rules. I guarantee you will like that even less.

DisorganisedOrganiser

Exactly.

Ds goes to work in paint and cement spattered trousers and what ever t.shirt and hoodie he doesn’t mind getting destroyed.

Dd is at work for the next few nights in a tiny black dress, stilettos and bunny ears.
Saturday she will be in t.shirt and leggings
teaching.

Why are we drumming it into our children that they must dress in suits or office ready clothing.

Students are capable of figuring out when it matters (e.g. PPE so you are safe with machinery, hair tied back so it doesn’t get caught) in which case they can follow the rules vs when it really doesn’t (e.g. no jewellery simply because it is policy rather than a real reason).

I’ll happily obey health and safety rules. Rules for their own sake, not so much.

If a plumber forgot their tools if they were junior then yes they might be fired. If senior of self employed though then they would just lose a bit of time (or a lot of time) going back to get them and so possibly lose a bit money but then could get on with it.

@Oliversmumsarmy people must dress appropriately for their job. That is what is being drummed into them. At school they must look smart. They are representing their school.

@DisorganisedOrganiser

Having a pen is not "a rule for its own sake"

If a child at school has no pen they cannot do the work!!! It is a barrier to learning! The time spent giving out pens to students takes away important teaching and learning time. Not only that the pens have more than likely been bought out of the teacher's own pocket.

@DisorganisedOrganiser Depends if you like the idea of me wearing a skater style dress of standard length so that every time I go to write on the board, check an ethernet cable is connected or get a file down from the shelf, the class gets a good view of my undercarriage and varicose veins.

How do they look smart when they are drenched in sweat and close to collapse in the summer when they are not allowed to take blazers off? They look ridiculous. Or in their white see through shirts which show even a flesh coloured bra in every detail?

Shitsandgigglez

If a plumber turned up without a tool he certainly wouldn’t get fired.

They would just pop out to get the relevant tool and any other equipment they needed and return at a later date or comeback an hour later

Shitsandgigglez

No behaviour policy in ds’s school (HE)

And dds school didn’t really have the masses of rules and regulations.

There isn’t an either or between a school with a million and one rules and ones with no rules