if you could afford to go private, should you?

[tankerdale]

Sometimes I worry that we've got our priorities wrong. We've ended up in a lovely large home with high running costs, we've got some but not loads of savings, most of our 'wealth' is in our house. Income is very good on paper but month to month we only manage to save a small amount, if any. I work 2.5 days, DH is full time. We have a nice lifestyle and I guess eat out a bit but I don't think we're otherwise extravagant, don't spend much on holidays, run 1 car, don't spend loads on clothes etc.

3dc, 2 already at primary school. We live in the catchment of what is considered a very good non selective state secondary but it is massive.

As it stands we couldn't afford to put 3dc through private secondary (there's a nice one nearby). But have we got it wrong? Should we move to a more modest home and prioritise paying for their education?

Feeling a bit guilty that we're not putting them first. Dc1 seems v bright and will probably be ok anywhere, dc2 I'm not so sure about and too early to tell with dc3.

If they go to the state school and have any problems I'm going to wish we made a different choice I think.

So - in principle, if you can pay for private - should you?

I'm at the one in the Independent article. I think had my Ds asked anyone at his school to look over his and included that sort of thing he would have been invited to go away and give it a better stab.

Bobo What does it matter? The girl asked for help. She is from a minority family and is the first to apply to attend university. She happens to attend a non-selective state school where the grades are ok but the leaving destinations are terrible. Now I know why.

When an 18 year old has the maturity to ask me themselves for help I give them a lot of help. It take a lot to put yourself out like that.

*take - takes

I'm sure you can, Kronut

I'm just interested that a U.K. state school would give zero help. I'm used to helpfree zones (and, indeed, obstruction) in French schools, but that's more forgivable in a way.

My three children have been in and out of various state/private schools. All schools are so different and it's about finding the right school that fits the child.

I think it all depends on where you live. One of my daughters has spent a significant amount of time in all girls schools and now goes to a much bigger academy where she is doing really well and is also more relaxed. The problem with so many private schools these days is that class sizes are dwindling which leads to an oppressive environment and the same friendship issues, day in, day out. There are a lot of private schools where there are only 10 in a class.

But it does depend on your child and the school.

Kronut Totally can see that. At 18 they think they need to put on a front. My advice was go and write about what motivates you. Be honest and write down in bullets why you want to apply for this course at the universities they have selected. All but two changed their courses and universities. I then told them to go write their personal statements, checking for grammar and spelling.

So simple and no need for all this Duke of Ed crap or doing other stuff when it isn't authentic. By all means do it but don't let that be a focal point on your UCAS form.

I'm just interested that a U.K. state school would give zero help.

But this correlates with budgetary reductions. Over-worked teachers and sixth form tutors do not have the time to help with university admissions. This is fine for those who can navigate university websites (everything you need is there) but not for those from families which don't really know where to begin i.e. don't know anything about the process, relative rankings of universities etc.

Kronutpearl my approach was to completely leave the boy to write his own statement but where the teacher had suggested he remove the paragraph detailing all his own independent reading, way outside the syllabus - and I use the term independent properly, because he got no prompting from either school or home - I strongly counselled the opposite. There was some grammar to tidy up too but my help was mainly to negate the terrible, terrible advice of his teacher about what he should be saying and to advise him to speak for himself and tell his own story, not to script it along the lines that a misinformed teacher told him he should. I also had to tell him to not be so negative: this is a boy with no money in the family who has taught himself to play the piano to Grade 8 in the past two years, solely from YouTube. Thus his personal statement originally read : 'I cannot read music properly but...' Heartbreaking. I'm delighted that he's now sitting on a clean sweep of offers he's really happy with - and given his grades (suppressed way below his ability levels thanks to his lousy school and a chaotic home life), I can't believe the personal statement and its content - his own very impressive achievements - wasn't taken into account.

I still wish this boy had had a stab at Oxford or Cambridge because he's way cleverer and more motivated than many I've seen get a place in his subject but that was a step too far and the quality of his schooling had pretty much robbed him of a place. In terms of raw talent, he's completely up there and it would have put him on a different path for life.

You have some good questions, OP.

If I could afford to and if we were living in a different area to where we are now then yes, I would move DC to private.

I have moved around a lot (childhood, young adult) so a fine house hasn't made much sense to me, mainly it's what is IN the house that does, iyswim? Having said that growing up we have always lived in a decent area and I went to good schools. I live in a good area now in our region and fortunately the local secondary is a top school.

Big changes to lifestyle if you moved though. Of course things change and no one can see what's around the corner but if you put yourself twenty years into the future, what do you think you would regret, if anything: moving house & moving DC's to private or keeping your lifestyle and their schools as is?

The worst case of poor teacher advice on PSs have seen was at the Lycee Charles de Gaulle in London. Terrible underpredicting of grades too - to such an extent that it seemed plausible that it was deliberate.

Sailing? I'm not that keen but what we tried with all the children is to introduce them to all kinds of things and then they can choose what they like. Of course you can equally do that in good state schools too. So we took the children sailing and in fact one worked whole university summers teaching sailing or working in sailnig centres - all abroad - in the end (rather than diong dull work experience and internships).

Could we move to skiing next..... Actually only one of my children has ever gone on a school ski trip as they prefer going with me. However my parents at some considerable sacrifice paid for me to go on a ski trip with the school when I was 14 ( same principle) and I loved it and we go every year now and that was all thanks to my parents for getting the money together for that school trip.

if it's any comfort to the state school parents on the thread every boy who applied to Oxbridge from my twins' school (private) this year failed to get a place which mine say vindicated their decision not to apply.

I don't ski it doesn't interest me, I've sailed and absolutely loath it, I talk about horses not to boast, they are deeply ingrained in me, and have been all my life, I am a horseaholic. I managed to kick it for 10 years but like all addictions one brief exposure and I'm hooked again.
IMO DS's experience of PSs, DS1 (state school) got some help suggestions etc, From his tutor, we also made some suggestions, he wrote it then showed it to his tutor and the grammar/spelling etc was "corrected", my DH who's really hot on grammar then recorrected both DS's and his tutors errors. DS2 (independent school) applying with his grades, met with his HM again suggestions were made we also made some, he wrote it and emailed it to his tutor who made a few suggestions some of which my did then again DH proof read it because it was easier, there were very few grammatical spelling errors. So actually very little difference. Both primarily talked about why they wanted to study their chosen subject, their enthusiasm for it. DS2 had done no work experience at the time but did discuss his travel experiences because it was relaxant and backed up his enthusiasm for his subject. DS1 had done work experience at a very eminent company but didn't mention it as it was totally irrelevant. Both got the universities they wanted.
DS2 did briefly consider at moving to DS1's school well regarded state 6th form, he met with a tutor who told him he would be put in an "elite" group being aimed at Oxbridge IC medicine etc, those in this group were given loads of help with PSs etc and lots of opportunities to do impressive work experience, more extra curricular activities that they considered looked good on your PS, a jolly abroad, lectures only for this group to attend etc. One of the reasons he didn't go was that he didn't like the huge favouritism that was so obviously being given to a small group. I know the "high achieving outstanding academy" DS1 attended till the end of yr 11 does the same thing.

I only got us into polo as I was amusingly sending up the thread in a sense - differences between state and private and preconceptions. A week skiing is neither here nor there. There are some issues in some kinds of (high paid) jobs where occasionally but I wouldn't put it higher than that your social capital and having hobbies in common with people helps. The Sutton Trust has looked at this.

I like skiing because I like finding mountains in snow in sunshine where no one else is around and looking at mountains. Other people like going as fast as they can on an adrenalin high. Being outside moving for a week always makes me feel good.

Most parents of all kinds of all incomes try to introduce their children to their hobbies (mine has always been singing and classical music so not surprisingly 3 of the children won music scholarships etc etc....) but I was just as happy my daughters' thing became sport at school not music by sixth form level although one was still in the choir by then. It's exposing them to hobbies they will love for life which of course you can do at state as well as private school and also home schooling which is useful and then they can make their choice as to what that might be.

On the sixth form point above my lazy lot specifically avoided Oxbridge applications at their fairly academic private schools because of all that extra help - basically it means more work so if you want to reduce your work load that's off putting for that other reason... more fool my lot not that they necessarily would have got in anyway.

On horses I think that will be the same with my girls - they don't currently have a horse but they will always be enthusiastic about it and hope to go back to it. They still sometimes visit their last horse as the owner lets them and they do occasionally still go riding. My son and I had lessons too but it did not grab us in the same way.

So many crave luxuary life styles and the jobs that go with them. I am exceedingly aware that poverty is intrinsically linked to health both physical and mental and poor attainment in education and is absolutely unacceptable in a country like the U.K. But I don't believe that extreme wealth necessarily makes you happy, or a better person. Most we know in these highflying well paid jobs work exceedingly long hours, they often have pretty dysfunctional relationships with both their partners and their DC's, they experience divorce ill health and death just like the rest of us.
DS2 has flown on private plane a couple of times, when I asked him what it was like he said "nothing special really," obviously more leg room that EasyJet, and apparently the best thing is that you don't spend hours hanging around the airport, you just rock up at the plane get in and go.

Don't knock people who create the jobs that alleviate poverty. Working very hard is part and parcel of the responsibilities that come with employing hundreds or thousands of people who rely on their job to feed their families.

No luxury lifestyle here, just slogging away to pay the school fees! But worth to me and DH. Everyone is entitled to spend their money as they like in a free country, and, for us, once we reach minimum lifestyle requirements, there is nothing more valuable than an education. And of course, if you unpack the word "education" you find a lot of particular, subjective opinion. Luckily, in London there is a lot of choice to find the school that is "just right" for one's particular family/child.

Am I knocking them? Where? I've lots of extremely wealthy friends, that's how I know that messy divorce, ill health and death don't pass you by on the other side of the road or that they are any happier than I am. I just don't believe, unlike some, that extreme wealth is the route to happiness.
I suspect if you ask those who were being exploited by the likes of Mike Ashley they wouldn't feel that he's a great employer enabling his staff to feed their families after a hard days work.

The main things that matter to me are good physical and mental health actually. I don't put much above those in priorities. Money is neither here nor there once you can afford to eat and have shelter. Extreme wealth or even a £100k a year income is not a route to happiness nor a good private school education although the latter does seem to help many children disproportinoately so I do feel it is mone well spent (next term is the last school fees I will pay having by then paid for a continuous 30 year period). I will not be funding the grandchildren's. (I will be funding university however for the younger children).

Coming back last night from visiting my teacher sister in Stoke, i think i saw something that sums up the difference quite simply!.

Norton Cranes Service Station on the M6 Toll Sunday evening two Warwick School Minibuses . Now firstly think of the cost for two minibuses to travel 20 miles on the toll £20 , secondly why waste £20 to travel 30 miles further saving 10 minutes from the journey on a Sunday evening.

I think this rather simply explains the difference , indicating not a second thought about spending £20 flippantly to save 10 minutes on Sunday evening trip. DSis school like many state schools struggle to put fuel in their one minibus for sport fixtures.

Could be a time/money thing? If you earn a lot then delay is much more expensive than a £20 toll I suppose. I have this dilemma all the time.

flyingwithwings The buses probably have two different starting points, one in the NW (probably Chester for families in NW and the cheshire area) and the other further up the M6 (probably Kendal/Lancaster for families in the Lake District/Scotland) or possibly Manchester airport since its half term.

Also, they have multiple stops along the way. When I took the bus during term time we have four stops on our route and parents are waiting for the bus to arrive. Taking the toll road makes a lot of sense so you have less variance in arrival time.

The school have a set route for the bus to take so if there is an incident, which has happened before, the school can know if the bus is affected or not and start reaching out to parents as appropriate. Our bus was once right behind a 10 car/lorry pile up and the school notified parents right away that we were all ok. They knew we must have been close so called the driver to confirm we were all safe before calling all parents.

Also, the bus being on time is really important to some parents. My Dad would often drop us off and as soon as he had waived us off he was heading to the airport to take a night flight to work. The bus was late once and he had to leave us at the drop off with another parent so he could make his flight. He was a single parent so not much he could have done. He had to go to work.

Yes, Isuspect (but may be wrong) that private schools understand better full time working parents' work/plans and that the parent may be losing hundreds of pounds for each hour of a delay.