Those of you in favour of grammar schools, come and tell me what to say to my Ds...

[seeker]

He woke up crying in the night because the reality had just hit him that he won't be going to school with his close friends in September because he failed the 11+ in September. "I can't be very bright, can I mum, or I would have passed" " no, it was just one of those things-you're going to a good school, you'll be fine" "I know- but if i was clever I'd be going to school with X and Y" "You are clever- look at your SATs-you'll be in the top set at the high school because of those" " it's not SATS that are important, though, it's the 11+"

Do you want to have more kids feeling like that? Then campaign for more grammar schools,

I'm sorry to hear your DS is so upset seeker
I think that's a big problem with the grammar system, there is so much competition for so few places that a lot of bright children miss out.
Some are tutored from a very young age, some DCs do not do so well in test situations, there are plenty of reasons why an able dc does not get a place.
However I'd be in favour of more grammar schools, and selectives as that means there would be more places available

I do believe in the grammar school system, I assume you did as well, which is why you went through the selection?

However my ds2 won't be sitting the 11+ because he is not academically in the top 5%. We could maybe tutor him to pass the test but I feel he would struggle in an academic school. So whilst I believe in the grammar education, it's not for everyone.

But if he passed, would you not be posting about how chuffed you were your son was going to a great grammar school?

I don't live in a grammar school area though my elder child goes to a grammar miles away in outer London. My younger child did not get in because she is dyslexic and was not professionally tutored. We tried to build up the school she did go to - an inner city comp - we knew that she was in the top band and had been offered a place on the basis of art aptitude so that made it "special" as well. None of her friends went to the comp, all to church schools. About half the kids from her primary went on to private schools. I am still very glad that my DD1 goes to a grammar, however if I lived in an area where all kids are "sorted" at 11, I would probably feel like Seeker.

I agree with you seeker which is why most of my. children did not even sit the 11 plus.

One of mine had a slight wobble and sat the exam, luckily he did not take the place and was very happy at the comp.

Tell your son that there are other talents rather than sheer academic "brightness".

Some years ago, I was shown round our local secondary modern by a confident, charming, eloquent 12 year old. I was later shown round the grammar by a 17 year old boy, who could hardly string two words together, although other 6th formers said in hushed voices, "he's absolutely brilliant you know..."

Well I know which one I'd place money on if the bet was who'd have a successful and happy life.

Hopefully it was just one night's wobble. Seeker, and once he starts there, he will soon make new friends, and still keep in touch with his old ones socially.

Its crap isn't it Seeker.

I didn't want dd to sit it, she wanted to though so she did. She passed, one of only 2 girls in her school to pass. Other kids called her a geek, etc and she was bullied a bit, she still wanted to go even though it meant leaving her friends.

Then she didn't get a place - here they're allocated on distance to teh school rather than top scores first. So she's going to the comp anyway. She's cried, I've cried.

They all develop at different rates, even at this age.

DS is in a grammar school. He sailed through the exams without tutoring but really struggled this first year (behaviour rather than academics). Mainly immaturity. He's just about coming out of this bad spell and we're hoping to put if all behind and that he'll have a better year.

They are still fragile at this age, aren't they?

We live in super selective grammar area, with 2000 children trying for 140 places, many of them not living in the borough.
Ds is bright but likes to do the bare minimum and didn't want to go there. He did the 11plus because that's what we all do here he didn't get a place.

Dh was gutted, as he'd had a crap education and wanted more for ds. The local boys school did not have a brilliant reputation, but was up and coming.
Two years later, ds is flying high..in the top sets, achieving well and most importantly, loving school.

I think it is sad that at 10, children are made to feel failures.

Your ds will be fine seeker...he will be at the top of the year group, and he has a good mum behind him.
He will be feeling anxious about moving on without his friends, and worried about making new ones.
But he will.

Tantrum, Seeker lives in Kent where 23% of children go to grammar schools. So it is different from areas with where only the top 5% go and even trying for it is a bit of a long shot.

Seeker, even if his closest friends aren't going to his new school, surely there are some boys that he is friendly with who will be going. It is not like he will not know anyone. He may become closer to these boys and will also make a lot of new friends. Are there any advantages to the high school that you can point out - there must be something, however small - that this school has that the grammar doesn't.

And as for not being clever, who is to know if he didn't fail by one mark. He is entirely wrong about the 11+ being more important than 'SATs'. (Especially if NVR is involved) As SATs measure what has been learned in primary and this feeds directly into the curriculum at secondary, they are far more important. Does your DS know how unusual the situation is in Kent. Perhaps you could tell him more about the history of selection and the introduction of comprehensives.

I am always very grateful that we don't have grammar schools here. I really can't see the point in them.

I have to say I think dd will probably be going to the right school for her even though she passed the 11plus and didn't get a place. Maybe I'm just convincing myself its for the best I don't know. However I think she'll get more of an all round education (this is knowing the 2 specifiic schools in question here), the comp seems less academic (but not in a bad way), but that it also encorages other interests, good pastoral care, etc.

DD will probably be in the top sets, etc. Wheras if she'd gone to the grammar I think she'd have been in the bottom sets there. It will be better for her confidence to go to the comp.

Yes, lets shove children into one-size-fits-all education shall we?

But the comps are streamed anyway - so it isn't one size fits all. Nothing wrong with streaming in one school where the kids have the opportunity to move up and down if needed. Not made to feel written off at 11.

Ours sets, rather than streams. That's a far better acknowledgement that children have different needs and abilities than a grammar system.

Just because it's a grammar school, doesn't make it the right school for an individual child. There will be kids at the hgh school who turned down grammar places. And there will be plenty who struggle at the grammar school, having been coached to pass the 11+.

None of this makes the grammar school system inherently wrong.

Not sure what the difference is between sets and streams? Sorry I might be using wrong terminology for it then. The kids are put into different sets, but might be in top set for one subject, middle for another, etc.

Surely the main problem with grammar schools is that - statistically speaking - they don't take bright kids, they take middle class kids. They're social segregation, not academic selection.

Unless someone comes up with a selection system that (a) is not affected by tutoring and (b) allows for different rates of development & progress I can't see how they can be a sensible option.

And the worst bit for poor seeker is that the non grammars in Kent have APPALLING records for mickey mouse exams.

The one small silver lining for her DS is that Idiot Gove's blessed Ebacc WILL have had an impact so that his opportunities will be much better than those of kids two years above him.

And seeker the main thing is to support him as much as you can to excel in as much as possible outside class so that he keeps his alert and inquisitive mind ready for when other doors open.

It is human nature for both of you to be upset disappointed angry etc that your DS did not get a place at the grammar school. There is nothing wrong with him expressing these feelings especially as the system has penalised him unfairly. He (and you) will experience this many more times in the future its what we do afterwards that counts.
He is going to have to learn to make the best of it a hard lesson at this age but a useful one. You are going to have to help him with this. I've found that my DS's views of their schools are very much influenced by my views. When I became very unhappy with the prep partly because they were DS2 became even more unhappy, when we became completely disillusioned so did DS2 I sometimes wonder if the last year would not have been quite so bad for him if we'd not been quite so negative. When I talk to children at work who are unhappy about some aspect of their schools there are often unhappy parents in the background. I'm pretty sure your trying to be positive have you looked at the schools website and are there clubs ect listed that he might join I too would contact friends going to his school however tenuous the friendship is invite them over and arrange meeting on the first day etc. You need to find as many positive things you can find about the school and also discuss how you're going to positively deal with any problems that might arise.
As you've already said not getting doesn't mean he's stupid and anyway as others have said being super clever is not necessarily a positive attribute and doesn't necessarily make you any happier than everyone else. The cleverest person we know (Oxford at 15) is a very difficult person and very unpopular at work due to his intolerance of others.

Sorry- I forgot when I posted my angry OP that people would need more background.

In our bit of Kent, 23% pass the 11+. if you pass you get a grammar school place. If you don't you go to the high school. There are no comprehensives.

My son failed catastrophically. Despite excellent CATs, and 655 SATs. Oh, and being achingly middle class

I refuse to believe he is alone. And no, if he had passed, I wouldn't be boasting about him going to grammar school. I hate both grammar and high schools- the whole idea of dividing children like this at 10 strikes me as completely invidious.

No, I don't believe he will be alone either, so the high school will have to cater for the entire ability range - which does rather defeat the point of having selective schools.

High schools in NI are the same as comprehensives, we have high schools and grammar schools. The 11+ is a big thing over here, even though it was abolished a few years ago. Schools now do a transfer test, you pay for the test which is did at a weekend. But still most of p6 and p7, up to the test date, is geared for taking the exam, practice papers 3 times a week .

Dd1 choose to do it, though I wasnt sending her to a grammar school, she got an A and I sent her to out local high school. People were horrifed, they are obsessed with grammar schools over here.

My df failed the 11+.
He'd just got back from a failed attempt to emigrate to another country because his parents couldn't get a job. They arrived there to find the job situation was worse than here, and came back having put all their money into the trip. they had no house, and had been put to the bottom of council housing list because they'd come off it.
My dgran had 3 jobs for a lot of his childhood, 6-8am in a bakery, 8:30-5:00 factory 6:00-10pm shift work; just to pay for it.

He was the only one from his school that went through the 6th form, one of a handful that did O-levels rather than CSEs. He did Maths A-level at the same time as his teacher-and got a better mark , and one of his A-levels he did at an evening class (Chemistry I think) because the school couldn't offer it. Was Headboy, Captain of Football, Rugby and Cricket... He had to work in the 6th form to earn money to buy a motorbike so he could get to the evening classes as he lived in a rural village and his parents didn't drive.

He did a degree and has had a very successful career. Going to the secondary modern has not stopped him doing anything he wanted to do, and in some ways gave him a more balanced time.

Interestingly he is very very strongly in favour of Grammar schools now. (we didn't live in a grammar area, so didn't go to one anyway) whereas my fil who did, is against them.

I went to a girls Grammar school which turned comprehensive part way through - and in the process the girls from two nearby secondary moderns were transferred to our school. There was a big overlap between the abilities of those in the top sets from the Secondary Moderns and the bottom sets of our school. Come our O levels - some of those girls who had failed the eleven plus, (so were supposedly not academic), got between 6 to 9 O levels; some of the grammar school girls got 0 - 3! It made me realise what a mockery it was.

30 plus years on my school is now well regarded as a comprehensive and gets far better results than it ever did as a grammar school (including an olympic medallist, plus Oxbridge entrants.)