Those of you in favour of grammar schools, come and tell me what to say to my Ds...

[seeker]

He woke up crying in the night because the reality had just hit him that he won't be going to school with his close friends in September because he failed the 11+ in September. "I can't be very bright, can I mum, or I would have passed" " no, it was just one of those things-you're going to a good school, you'll be fine" "I know- but if i was clever I'd be going to school with X and Y" "You are clever- look at your SATs-you'll be in the top set at the high school because of those" " it's not SATS that are important, though, it's the 11+"

Do you want to have more kids feeling like that? Then campaign for more grammar schools,

There was a working woman called Xenia
She was soo rich it was obscenia
She luffed private schools
But not SAH fools
As she just doesn't like their demeanour

Morning eveyone!

A question about tutoring.

Some things in life are hard to learn. Playing an instrument to high level requires a type of 'tutoring' coupled with musical talent, hardwood, determination and practice. There are probably knick on benefits of 'tutoring' a child in music....increased concentration, increased self confidence, self reliance, increased vocabulary, etc.

But nobody bleats on about parents who can afford musical tutoring, afford a pricy instrument and offer the parental support required to get to high level.

Why should parents who 'tutor' their kids for 11+ be vilified (on MN? in the real world, I have never heard anyone be critical of tutoring).

InkyBinky. A good end note.

Cross posted - I thought we were at the end. You need lessons if you are to play a musical instrument- it is not tutoring. Having quite adequate lessons to play well and then needing to pass an audition so paying someone to give you the benefit of their knowledge and experience to beat the competition is tutoring.

My nephew was a talented footballer. He was scouted by a premiership team to join their coaching programme when he was very little (7 or so). That was intensive coaching, including long stretches spent on individual skills like dribbling and ball control and passing. What it most certainly not was a gang of boys kicking a football around. It was all about discipline, skills, team-work, listening skills and practice, practice, practice.

Yes, top footballers (or whoever) have bags of talent but get where they are by practice and discipline. And it is hard work.

My nephew dropped out in the end because he found the sessions dull and his maturity level was not up to it.

All that to say that people burble on about how tutoring is boring and takes the pleasure out of learning but most things are not fun, fun, fun all the way, even at quite a young age.

I don't see wrong with tutoring on the 'unfair advantage' score as, like Xenia says, we all give our children the advantages we can, it is human nature and yes, tutoring can be boring, repetitive and hard work. Like so many things in life.

I honestly can't see any difference in any type of musical tuition and tutoring.

thread has been fascinating insight into confused woman muddled ideology
incandescent that son failed 11+ but making out hey never wanted it anyhoo
and incongrurpent answers...and love poems to xenia

If I want to learn to play the violin I will find a teacher -not a tutor. If I am already a brilliant violin player but need help to make a career of it, pass an audition etc then I need a tutor to give me the edge above others who have had normal lessons.

Exoticfruit

And what's wrong with that?

Scottishmummy- god you talk crap.

If you have to provide tutoring for entry to a state school it means that school is only available to those whose parents are able to pay for it or who are educated and literate enough to access and use the free resources available. This means that many children will be automatically selected out because of their parents. Which is patently unfair.

Where did I say there was anything wrong with it? I was just explaining the difference- rather like earlier in the thread when someone was describing normal family life, reading and talking to your toddler as 'tutoring'.

Imagine an ordinary state secondary school where they said "ok- you can have q place if you've got grade 5 violin" Then music lessons and 11+coaching would be the same thing!

I don't see the comparison with providing a music teacher being the same as tutoring for the 11+. It might be if the music teacher only practised scales over and over again with your child.

Hard work and discipline, learning about failure is all fine, but we are talking about 10 year old children here, not adults.

You do get state schools like that, Seeker. Maybe not grade 5, but perhaps grade 3.

Some take 10% on musical ability- preferably grade 3 or above. Don't think there are any where it is an entry requirement for the whole school, are there?

???Greythorne??? Lots of people do say it's unfair that children of well off parents get to learn the musical instruments, etc, which they do not have access to, because of the colossal financial barriers. However, since playing a musical instrument is not a requirement for getting into a grammar school and people think grammar schools give you a greater chance of getting into the best universities and getting the most prestigious careers, whereas most musicians earn very little, this group of people is less vociferous on mumsnet. Now, if scouts went around looking for talented children to coach for the 11 plus, I guess it would be a situation a bit more like that of your nephew, but I don't see any tutors offering their services for free.

Exotic, you do talk rubbish.

Greythorne, it is easy to see why people are against tutoring. As it raises the bar for everyone, it raises the average "level" and therefore puts children who are, say, in the middle but not tutored, bit by bit into the bottom half.

It puts pressure on everyone to tutor as well!

Basically, people do not want other people to tutor their kids, as it may mean their children may be left behind.

This is the same reason, I guess, people are against private school. It gives an "unfair" advantage.

Not that I agree with any of the above, as I have used tutors and recently moved my precious bright kids (actually, I fear they are average so therefore can do with some extra help) to private school.

Maybe it's you who is confused,scottishmummy? seeker's point of view seems perfectly straightforward and unmuddled to me.

The 11+ assumes it is selecting on academic ability,and is testing children who have had the same degree of teaching.State schools aren't allowed to prepare children for it.So if a large group of children are being extensively prepared it skews the results and undermines the results of the test - even if you think the system is fair and selection is a good idea,the test isn't then fulfilling the purpose it is meant to serve.

Chandon - it is unfair to claim that the 11 plus should not be tutored for and to prevent state schools from tutoring children in any way, and then let parents "cheat" by doing what they have been told they must not do. Did you always cheat at board games and sports????? If the 11 plus is an exam that children should be prepared for, then the powers that be should stop telling code-abiding citizens not to do it.

Exotic, you do talk rubbish.

But I enjoy it! I haven't found a better outlet than MN for it-largely because other people spout rubbish too-I could say the same about you MA-especially if I am right about your last posting name.

Exotic You clearly do not know anything about music. And there's no great mystery about my last posting name since I explicitly said what it was upthread.

You will note that while I strongly disagree with your views on grammar schools and your knee jerk support of seeker I didn't call any of your previous posts rubbish. Because they are your views and you are entitled to them. What you posted about music lessons was, however not an opinion - it was uninformed unmitigated rubbish.

I clearly don't-despite my clutch of certificates for piano playing and theory of music.

REPOST
Seeker. I think you come across as very sensible and articulate. I haven't found anything you have said to be hypocritical and don't understand how others can have thought this. I really hope your DS has already forgotten his initial disappointment and is now looking forward to starting his new school. It will be interesting for you to compare your two DC's schools. I bet there will be good and bad points about both school. I hope it goes well for both of them

ending thread on a pleasant and positive note.

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