Those of you in favour of grammar schools, come and tell me what to say to my Ds...

[seeker]

He woke up crying in the night because the reality had just hit him that he won't be going to school with his close friends in September because he failed the 11+ in September. "I can't be very bright, can I mum, or I would have passed" " no, it was just one of those things-you're going to a good school, you'll be fine" "I know- but if i was clever I'd be going to school with X and Y" "You are clever- look at your SATs-you'll be in the top set at the high school because of those" " it's not SATS that are important, though, it's the 11+"

Do you want to have more kids feeling like that? Then campaign for more grammar schools,

I look at the progress ds made in Y6. He went from 3a to 5b in maths (I know there aren't sublevels in actual SATs, but if there were it would have been a 5b). Nobody else in his class made this kind of progress; something must have just clicked with him.

A test sat at age 10/11 would have been a crap way to decide how he should be taught and with whom for the rest of his schooling, basically.

A test at age 10/11 is in no way a sensible way of dividing out those who are academic and those who are not. And a grammar school education is not an education for the brightest, it's an education for the most academic (something some of the less bright, but more able to cope with boredom and hard work turned out to be far better at than the brightest and most inquisitive). I enjoyed my time at my grammar school but had equally bright friends who were miserable there, because they had no interest whatsoever in what they were being taught and no effort was made to make the connection between what was being taught and what they might actually want to do with their lives. The assumption was that they all wanted to pass their school exams, go to university and then work it all out from there (AFTER years of studying for the purely for the joy of studying, or on the basis of a promise that good qualifications will open the world up to you, which we all know is actually a big fat lie, qualifications are just very helpful, when they aren't actually hindering you by wasting your time on something unconnected with what you actually want to do).

As someone, maybe one of the few, who has been there (and I passed the 11+) and wears the tee shirt, I will tell you seeker, there is absolutely nothing you can say to your DS that will console him. He will have to learn to accept it and live through it (because there is no way out or over it).

Have you considered a private school instead?

I am really sorry for your DS. I know exactly how he must be feeling (I can still remember all these years later).

Tell him that he'll meet some nice new friends and that he can see his other mates outside of school anyway.
Tell him that many, many children who don't go to grammars do incredibly well (and hope to god that they still do the same exams as the grammars by the time ds is 16).
Tell him that non-grammars now have sixth forms, so you can do A levels.

Tell him that there are people (like me and my ds) who didn't enjoy our grammar school educations, because (with 34 years between us) neither of us had one inspirational teacher. So - grammar schools don't necessarily mean good teachers as rabbitstew has mentioned on another thread.

Tell him that non-grammars often offer the opportunity to do 'different' subjects, away from a narrow academic curriculum.

Tell him that there are lots of children at grammar schools who think they are the bees knees, but, in fact, have only got there because they've been tutored from the time they could talk.

Tell him not to feel sad because it is a stupid divisive system.

seeker I hope the sec modern is OK - I come from Kent and now live another 11+ area and I feel your angst........ but with 556 in SATs ds should sail through in top sets. Good luck to him.

Can I say one thing seeker?

I see all those DP's who would tell you to try and spin it and hype it and offer some consolation. I will say dont. Understand what your DS feels. Accept it. Dont try to make it better by saying nice things about a bad do.

Then try and find out what he would like.

Poor seekerson.:( I'm really sorry he's feeling so bad about it all. As you know, I think, I am not in favour of grammar schools at all, for many reasons, the emotional heartache and self-perception of children who fail the 11+ (ie the vast majority of children, anywhere between about 77% and 98% of all children who take the test) not least.

But, fwiw, I think that many children get severe secondary school nerves about now, regardless of which system their area uses/parents choose and what school they have been allocated. Transition to secondary is a MASSIVE thing, even if all goes relatively smoothly and children have got into their first choice school. Leaving the very familiar, safe, relatively small environment of primary school behind is scary as well as exciting. There will always be friends going onto different schools. Children can and do adjust to that and, as the sheer number of children they meet expands exponentially, new friendships are formed and old ones quite often end, even when kids move onto secondary with a large number of primary school buddies. I miss some of my boys' primary friends, with whom I confidently thought they'd be friends for life because they were going onto the same secondary. Not a bit of it- neither of my soon to be year 9 twins are close to anyone they went to primary school with these days (apart from each other, and even that relationship has evolved and changed hugely).

I really agree with the posters who have said that your positivity will make a big difference to him and that you and his dad need to big up his school at every opportunity, even if he slightly smells a rat at the moment because he knows your views re the rubbishness of the system and the resulting effect of creaming off many high achieving children on secondary modern schools. I am so hopeful that once he starts and settles in both he and you will be reassured that it is a place he can thrive and eventually say with attitude, confidence, well roundedness and exam results: FUCK YOU TO THIS SHIT SYSTEM, I AM A PERSON WHO WILL FLOURISH WHEREVER I GO! (Without the uncouth swearing, perhaps).

jabed I disagree. In your day, going to sec modern was a real downer because they only did CSEs and there were no 6th forms.

Now, it is possible to say that a child leaving a sec modern can achieve as well as a child leaving a grammar as they are all given the opportunity to do equal GCSEs and A levels. So, they shouldn't have your element of despair.

felxybex - might I remind you I did O levels and A levels and I am the wild card who took two degrees from that most illustrious of institutions called Cambridge University.

Times may seem to change but DC's do not. Human feelings do not change.

I know what that guy feels. My parents bigged up my rat hole of an SM
(which was not probably so much of a rat hole as some of the current SM in Kent actually). They said all the things suggested here. They said I would make new friends. I could see my old ones out of school (no it didn?t work as they began to realise they were my ?superiors" and didn?t want the SM sausage as a mate despite my topping the class).

I was told I could beat the system and move at 13, 14 and 16 - only to find out it isn?t that simple. In short, with the best intentions, my parents were misinformed and misinformed me. Some of my teachers even LIED.

I have not forgotten that experience all these years later and if the HT of my old school were still alive I would happily kick him in the wherewithal.

All that my parents succeeded in doing was make me feel even more guilty about being unhappy and frustrated such that I was not even able to tell them how I felt and what I wanted.

I am saying - don?t allow that to happen. The boy even at 11 will have aspirations and you need to know what those are, not make him hide them because he feels bad about not wanting what life has dealt him.

This isn?t just about failing an 11+ or going to a particular school or trying to make your kid feel worth something by spin doctoring. It?s his future and his life for five years at least now. It will have a lasting impact.

Had I been able to speak openly to my parents I might have been able to get out of that rat hole school and have got a scholarship to an independent (not saying that?s right for seekers DS) but I wouldn?t say how unhappy I was because she wanted me to feel OK about the school and I didn?t want her to know how I felt.

Don?t let that happen. I can happen so easily with the good intentions of positivity. Be honest. That?s what I am saying.
I hope it all works out for seeker and her DS

Thank you all. He is back to his normal bouncy self today-he is a very confident, cheerful positive person and I am sure he will do well. I do think he feels the weight of the expectations, though- when he went to the induction day at the high school one of the teachers (we live in a small town) said "Hello, seekerson- I didn't expect to see you here!" (thank you, mrs X- foot in mouth award to you!). Jabed- things have changed a lot since your (and my!) day. The only GCSEs not available at the high school that are available at the grammar are Latin and 3 sciences- and I think the 3 science thing will change. No madrigal group, string quartets or cricket, sadly.

I'm so sorry. It's a ridiculous system .

jabed I've worked out on previous threads that you're about the same age as me. I know at the time I did O levels, all local sec mods did CSEs only and had no 6th forms. Evidently you were lucky to find one that did the higher level exams.

And.... I'm not sure you're giving seeker very good advice by saying that she should tell her ds what a crap time he's going to have for the next 7 years!!

Around here, there is a 'hierarchy' of sec mods, and I know for a fact that one of them got more pupils into Oxbridge than my son's GS a couple of years ago.

If you're in the catchment of a very bad sec modern, you may consider moving (although that option isn't open to everyone).

You can always do madrigal groups and string quartet at the local music centre, and join a cricket club! That way you meet loads more people!

I was just trying to get the message to jabed that high schools aren't "rat holes".

Seeker my DD passed the 11+ and didn't get a grammar place thanks to the efforts of her HT, but I still believe in grammar schools. (and we moved heaven and earth and got into debt to send her private, but that's another thread).

Jenai if we lived where you do I wouldn't be that bothered about the lack of grammar schools. Living just 18 ish miles up the road from you our catchment schools are CRAP. Selection by postcode and/or bank balance is just about the most unfair system there is :(

know at the time I did O levels, all local sec mods did CSEs only and had no 6th forms. Evidently you were lucky to find one that did the higher level exams

My school did CSE. I went to night school and took O levels.

In fact my SM was turned into a comprehensive a few years afterI left. It now has the repuutation of being one of the worst in the county. It was not agood SM anymore than it is a good comp. I will not give it credence by suggesting it was ever any good.

I achieved what I did despite my school.

No madrigal group, string quartets or cricket, sadly

If he does not want those things, that may be OK. If he dies, you may need to find an alternative outlet. Personally those were all things I would have bust a gut to get at school. My school was all football and no music at all. I had to teach myself Latin.

But just make sure you know what he wants. Good luck. .

And.... I'm not sure you're giving seeker very good advice by saying that she should tell her ds what a crap time he's going to have for the next 7 years!!

I didnt say she should. I think though she needs to be honest so he can say to her if his school is crap and he is unhappy there.

If he dies,

OOps. If he does. :)

Sabriel, you may believe in grammar schools but you don't seem to believe in the selective system if you chose to opt out once the system didn't go the way you would have wished. Academic selection really doesn't preclude further 'selection by postcode', unless you assume that those not selected for grammar school have no interest in making a choice from the schools still available to them.

Regarding taking O level at SM, some go-ahead SM schools introduced them for their higher streams before jabed's time. They may not have offered the full range of subjects but some of them did offer some O levels.

Well, jabed, that was the point I was making, wasn't it? Unlike our days, pupils at secondary moderns get to do the same exams as those at grammar schools. So, whereas in the 70s children were written off at 11, they are now given the opportunity to get equal qualifications.
Just because you had the strength of mind to go to night school to do O levels, etc, has nothing to do with it.

seeker madrigal groups....string quartets..... you never know with MN! (I did think it was tongue in cheek, but I didn't want to be rude!)

CecilyP don't really understand your point. My DD should have gone to grammar, and passed the 11+ with the highest points in the area (told so by LA) but was refused a place just because the HT put her recommendation down as High School. She was a child easily led and we knew she'd gravitate to the lowest point if she went to High School.

DS1 didn't take the 11+ and went to the nearest High school because that was the most appropriate school for him, which after all is the purpose of the exercise. DS2 and DS3 took and passed the 11+ and both went to grammar. If we were still in Kent I've no doubt that DD2 would be going to High school. Sadly we are now in a comprehensive area and the "good" schools with the better results and better behaved kids are not in the area we live. We cannot afford a house in the area(s) served by the better schools. How is that fair?

It's just pre-secondary nerves, seeker. If it weren't that, it would be something else. As you know, really, since you have an older child, but of course you couldn't let another opportunity to bash selective schools pass you by.

I think it's completely normal for children about to start a new school without most of their friends to feel a bit wobbly regardless of any selection issues. He's quite possibly using the 'brightness' issue as a cover for normal uncertainties. Whether or not this is the case you must poor scorn on 11+ system to reassure him he absolutely is not a failure (I'm sure you do this in any case).

11+ is clearly rubbish and throws up inaccuracies like this quite often - he's fallen foul of it but it's not the end of the world. I disagree with jabed, you should big up the positives of his new school (I seem to remember you saying it's good for footie at least and of course more diverse) and as well reassure him he will do well whichever school he goes to because you will support him (if necessary) to make sure it happens and because he is a bright lad whatever any test may have shown. Point out that in the end he will get more kudos from achieving well from a lower ranked school and remind him that if any of his friends make any mention of him being less bright, they are talking rubbish. The test simply isn't always accurate and never has been.

I hope he feels better soon, I'm sure once he starts school and gets settled things will begin to look up.

seeker
I do feel you have to get a grip and accept the new reality and stop thinking this is disastrous.

It is not, but as happygardening says above, treating this as a catastrophe can create its own problems.

FWIW, I went to a shitty comp, with loads of emphasis on sport (which I was crap at), no Latin, chess club, extra curriculas except hockey and footy, appalling teachers and a vibrant lowest common denominator mentality.

I survived and it galvanized me to do better. I went to Oxford and have had a very high flying career not inspite but because of that comp experience.

Jabed
I take it that you said; "Have you considered a private school instead?" as a wind up! Perhaps a little cruel given the situation!