Any Upper Middle Class Parents opt for State?

[Cortina]

Subtle but interesting difference perhaps? By Upper Middle Class lets say I mean obviously RP accent, I mean with a family income of 300,000 pounds upwards, typically banker/lawyer parents probably in home counties with home with some land attached worth upwards of 2 millon pounds.

Would you put your child in a state primary or seconadary if you honestly thought they'd stand out like a sore thumb compared to their peers? I don't mean in the leafy suburbs like Bucks but an area where they'd be in the distinct minority. IMO & experience the result often isn't pretty. The amount of hatred at my school to those that had more was deeply unpleasant, how we hatred the 'snobs' - it's almost like this hatred was galvanised and encouraged by those in charge somehow. I remember we put on a show about the unfortunate children from a private school who happened to share our holiday centre in Y6. How everyone laughed at our imitations of their accents and cultured ways, a tide of hatred was whipped up. Deeply unpleasant and how odd it was encouraged looking back.

These poor children had done nothing more than to differ from the norm. Drop a younger Kate Middleton into the 'Educating Essex' school for example, would this be fair?

Ha ha ha!

If you actually read the German press you would see that a large part of the national discussion involves whinging about the short-comings of the education system and arguing about the many, varied and highly politicised attempts to restructure it. There is currently a huge focus on what to do with the sub-secondary modern tier of education which is a dumping ground for non-white, non m/c teens who come out with no real qualifications to their name.

So it is definitely not the case that Germany has a uniformly good state school system. It has in the past had a state school system that has met the needs of middle-class parents very well, though even that is now breaking down. Non m/c, non-white, non able-bodied children have never been well-served by the system, but that has not made the national debate.

At what point did I suggest only 7% of the population had manners? Does anyone actually read posts properly? I said my child would be bullied and in fact was bullied, not that all independently educated children had manners and state kids do not. Stop being so defensive!

I have not said that manners and confidence are the same thing as arrogance. Ido. It have a chip in my shoulder , I am quite happy with my lot in society, we have the means to privately educate but choose nt to, exactly because of that happiness and confidence. My dd has manners, she has confidence and has not been bullied. She is very academic and again has never been picked on for that either. She has been picked on for being poor, she has been picked on for being rich, but never manners.

However if she went to a school with the attitude that all these common children are destined to pick on my because I am so much more academic and well mannered , I suspect that she would be picked on. I have seen children with that attitude being "bullied".

You said you wouldn't send your child to a state school because he would get bullied because of his nice manners and accent. No qualifications. Which seems to imply that you consider good manners the exclusive preserve of the private school.

"if she went to a school with the attitude that all these common children are destined to pick on my because I am so much more academic and well mannered"
Do children think like this? I know mine don't.

I have 4 kids at 4 different state schools and none of them have EVER been bullied for having manners or speaking nicely.

I work in a state school and most kids hold doors open, are very polite etc.

I think that 99% of the tosh posted on this thread is complete and utter bollocks. Do people really still give a shit about class demarcations and whether people are 'UMC' or not??

Close the private schools and send 'em all to be state educated

We live in a free society if I choose to channel my money into private education that's up to me. I not asking you or anyone else to pay for it most of those who are so against it do not think its any better than the state sector. So on that basis you could say that if I choose to waste my money paying for education then that's my funeral.

I have worked with children who have thought that they are cleverer , more civilised, more cultured than other children and have had a sneers attitude to others in their class. Eventually the class has turned and we have had a bullying situation on our hands.

It is rare, but does happen. The bullying wasn't caused by the child's manners in the sense that colleger meant . Although in reality they had a complete lack of manners.

I know someone similar to that described by op who opted to send her son to our state primary. Both he and she were subjected to astounding cruelty and ridicule by the in-crowd, whose social class I have no idea of but are things like nurses, receptionists etc. She has since moved him to a top prep and they are both much happier for it. From my outsider's viewpoint twas the in-group mothers who influenced the children to exclude him. I don't know her very well but I could see nothing about her that deserved this treatment. The school head was aware of the situation and tried massively to help, but to no avail. Was horrible to witness. Three of us helped at the edges, but seeing as I have the social leverage of a sausage with the in-crowd mothers group that her son wanted to be friends with, there was not much I could do apart from mop up the odd tear and make sure I spoke to her at the gate. Sure it doesn't happen everywhere, and there may have been other dynamics going on that passed me by as someone not overly involved with these gals, but I am starting to think that sometimes people and their circumstances are sometimes just too different for connections to be made, and that is why manners were invented. Note to self: use more fullstops.

I disagree with your definition of upper middle class for a start . Upper middle class people don't have to be professional or rich.

"I have worked with children who have thought that they are cleverer , more civilised, more cultured than other children and have had a sneers attitude to others in their class. Eventually the class has turned and we have had a bullying situation on our hands.

It is rare, but does happen. The bullying wasn't caused by the child's manners in the sense that colleger meant . Although in reality they had a complete lack of manners."

I know exactly what you are talking about, Kellogg, though I think that it is often more of a culture clash in the sense of very different values than a lack of manners.

I can understand wanting to be with people from a similar background as yourself , that is quite natural.

My children are quite 'posh' in their manners and their accent (well, compared to many of their peers). No bullying at all. There are some groups they don't get on with but by and large they ignore them. Being bullied usually requires more than just being 'posh'. BTW I was bullied in my private girl's school. Why? Because we didn't have enough money and I was a bit of a nerd.

This thread is everything I can't stand about this country.
I'm so glad I don't encounter any of this in my daily life, it's disgusting.

I'm not trying to be obtuse but what particular aspect of this thread can you not stand/find disgusting?

In my DD's school there is the odd child who has a very different upbringing to the majority. Not children with SEN or anything like that - but not brought up within the normal range of acceptable behavioural standards of the school. Those children inevitably drain a lot of the teachers' time as they try to bring them into line with the standards of the school. It's quite annoying - 99% of parents would rather all the children were being taught rather than the odd child being disciplined...

I echo happy gardener's question. And wonder exactly what Bonsoir's means as well- are the well mannered children the ones she means when she talks about having a different upbringing tonthe majority?

No, seeker, the odd children are less "well mannered" than the vast majority - but perfectly within normal standards of behaviour in society. They would, however, be better adapted to a different sort of school environment IMVHO!

So is it the case then that only children of parents who have an income above 300K are well mannered and should all be schooled together (to avoid bullying by the plebs) but in that bracket it really is better if you are old money (with no manners, manners are dreadfully non-u) and a granny to pay the school fee's

I'm confused.

Being thoughtful and kind aren't things we value much as a society. Which is a shame.

My second son is shy and not naturally gregarious. I think some people sometimes mistake his reserve as aloofness when in fact he is far more thoughtful, gentle and caring than his gregarious, outgoing older brother.

Seeker we agree again! This could start to become a habit!

Now here's a thought! Obviously the children who are in most need of the pastoral care, small classes, individual attention, brilliant facilities and all the other benefits people claim for independent schools are the ones who don't have supportive parents and privileged, secure, happy homes. So why not put those children- the ones in need of the most support- in the environment where they will get it, and all the other children, who would do well wherever they go because of their home backgrounds, can be educated together?

The government suggested children in care homes should be at boarding schools but it was flamed by labour!

It's sometimes hard to be a simultaneously supportive parent and a working parent. Some people pay school fees so that someone else will supervise their children's breakfast, homework and evening meal, or whatever, because they can't be present due to work commitments. And because it's normally the woman who gives up her job to fulfill that role, I think it's anti-feminist to be anti-independent schooling.