Does social class over power gender at attainment in schools?

[Emily19]

Hello,
I am currently studying on an access to Teacher Training course. I intend to research "Does social class over power gender at attainment in schools?".

Any Information given is completely confidential, if you require a copy of any work I have used, I will be more than happy to supply you with a copy. (In your opinion)

• What are your views on Social class affecting attainment in schools?

• What are your views on Gender affecting attainment in schools?

-Which do you think has the greater influence?

Many Thanks

'You speak as if you are the only person who is prepared and able to work with students . You are the only person who understands SEN. The only person teaching mixed ability classes , and you are so good of course that only you can both teach the ones who need additional support at the point where they are possible not ideal material for the subject and level they are attempting and also doing additional work with those Oxford candidates at the opposite pole.'

I certainly do not. I am saying to you that my experience is typical. This is what most teachers are like. I am saying that you are the ONLY teacher I have encountered who does not have experiences like these and who has the attitudes that you have.

'In my own school and most of those where I have worked, dealing with the support needs of the more challenging has been done by those trained and good at it.'

Yep, that would be me AND ALL OF MY COLLEAGUES.

'Different subjects and depts ( and universities) have different entry requirements. I said in my subject I prefer not to take students with dyslexia because it is difficult for them to obtain a good grade. This is well known in my subject area.'

What subject do you teach? Because I teach English and its hard to think of a subject where reading and writing are more important and we have many dyslexic students.

Far from this sort of policy being 'well known' it is in fact discrimination.

You come out with the most ignorant and offensive statements and then wonder why people don't think you belong in the classroom!!!

Yep, that would be me AND ALL OF MY COLLEAGUES

But in my school none of the academic staff are trained . We are all specialists in our own right in our own areas, maybe thats the big difference? But I do not know you carry on like this. I said what I think. you disagree. Ok. Thats that isnt it?

Any system that has to reject some applicants whilst accepting others is discriminatory.

I certainly do not. I am saying to you that my experience is typical.

Yes, I noticed you said once before your experience was typical ( with regard to extra classes , twilight after school and holiday clubs. Then you set up a thread asking other teachers about their experiences and found the reality was diverse, with not a few sharing my situation. But I see you shut up after that.

I am saying that you are the ONLY teacher I have encountered who does not have experiences like these and who has the attitudes that you have

Then you seem to have lived in a very small world , or you are so vocal and abusive most of your colleagues who do not share your view are afraid to say anything

jabed, you haven't answered my question as to who should teach dcs with SN if teachers refuse to do it.

Should schools keep a whole array of SENCOS with different subject qualifications? Or are you saying that a child with SN simply doesn't deserve an education?

And I seriously do not get the dyslexia thing. I have had no specialist training but I am still able to teach Classics at university level to dyslexic students and I know my colleagues in English and history also cope well- so what is this subject of yours that is so impossible to teach to dyslexic students?

'But in my school none of the academic staff are trained'

Again, I find it hard to believe that such a school actually exists. You're saying that none of your staff have any training at all in dealing with students with special educational needs? Did they not do PGCEs? Does your school not have INSET? Is there no SENCO?

I have no specific qualification in SEN but it doesn't mean I can't teach students with SEN.

And again, I have to wonder what you think SEN actually means because the way you talk about students with SEN makes it sound as though you think they have 3 heads and you have to wear special clothes if you go near them.

'Any system that has to reject some applicants whilst accepting others is discriminatory.'

It is illegal to discriminate because someone has a SEN or a disability. It is no different from refusing to teach someone who wears glasses, or is female or is black.

'Then you set up a thread asking other teachers about their experiences and found the reality was diverse, with not a few sharing my situation. But I see you shut up after that.'

That's rubbish. That thread shows that the vast majority of teachers have at some point taken part in extra-curricular activities. Most still did. And most was unpaid. Since there will be up to 100 teachers in a secondary school that indicates that a huge amount of unpaid extra-curricular activities goes on.

And that thread dealt specifically with extra-curricular work and revision classes. Not the day to day hour to hour support that most teachers engage in.

'We are all specialists in our own right in our own areas, maybe thats the big difference?'

Most teachers are specialists in their own subjects. That doesn't stop them teaching students with SEN. You really do have some very odd ideas.

jabed can I ask when you say none of the academic staff are trained do you mean in SEN or do you mean they are academics rather than QTS?

'Then you seem to have lived in a very small world , or you are so vocal and abusive most of your colleagues who do not share your view are afraid to say anything'

Jabed, if you read this thread again and the others under education you will see that it is you and your views that are in the minority. A minority of one in fact.

I get on great with my colleagues, thanks. Of course, I've had disagreements at work but never, ever with people who refuse to teach students with SEN or with teachers who refuse to get involved in anything other than what they're paid for.

It's really hard to believe that you actually are a teacher since your views and experiences are so very different from anybody else's with any experience of education in the last 20 years.

I have already told you that I work in middle management in a very large college with over 2000 students. I worked in another large college before that and a school before that. I did my PGCE in central London and have since worked in at least 4 different LEAs. I've also done consultancy and freelance educational publishing which means I've been into dozens of schools. I've come into contact with many hundreds of students and other teachers through moderation and examining. My dp is a deputy head in a different school and has worked in 3 others before that. My parents are teachers (my father a research professor in a university). My SIL is also a teacher. As well as a degree I have an MA and 2 Diplomas in education. To suggest that I'm disagreeing with you because my experience of education is limited is laughable.

I should also say that I've been on interview panels for all sorts of teaching jobs where the question about extra-curricular activities/what more you can offer the school/ what experience have you got of differentiating for students of all abilities are bog standard. Needless to say if anybody had answered these questions as you have (which they haven't) they would never have got the job.

Oh the falacy of argument by authority now. I am supposed to be impressed?

Just leave it fivecandles.

I do not agree with you. Just lets disagree OK? I have better things to do than answer your comments.

In this environment anyone can be an expert fivecandles. I have no proof or evidence of anything you say beyond your word.

I could just say as you have to me, I dont believe you because I dont. You are too good now to be true. So lets leave it at that.

Jabed, you're not even making sense. Rather than responding to what's being suggested to you, you continue to make up a string of ridiculous accusations and childish insults. Maybe this is a sort of self-defense mechanism. I don't know. I'm not trying to impress you or anybody else. I told you about my experience to counter your accusation that I live in a small world which, as with all your other far flung accusations about me, you seem to have pulled out of thin air. Far from being 'too good to be true', I consider myself no better and no worse than most of my colleagues. I think my experience is fairly typical. Your attitude to teaching, however, is neither typical nor desirable and your attitude to students with SEN is particularly disturbing.

You are directing all of your comments to me and although admittedly I've been more persistent than anybody else here, I'm actually not saying anything that others aren't saying too. Are you going to dismiss everybody else on this thread too?

jabed, fivecandles towers above you as far as I can see. No contest, she's eaten you for breakfast day after day. Why keep coming back to be swallowed ignominiously again?

Yellowstone - I have tried not to come back. I can see she has a fan club. All I am asking her to do is to stop making comments and then I do not have to respond.

Clearly as far as you are concerned she has won the day.

I still do not agree with her. I still think she does not know where to draw the line. neither does she seem to know where to draw a line with me when asked.

Still she has to say how wonderful she is ( well she has her fan club , but I know people can be all things here. Its n ot a place where it can be disputed is it?).

I have asked several times for her to stop being rude to me but she continues to make her comments. I cant leave them unanswered. She now says I am childish ( does she do this to her students? How many throw chairs at her then I wonder? EBD pipuls would be quick to fight back, dont tell me otherwise if she said such things to them). But why does she need to continue?
Enough is enough. That is all I asked for. Stop.

I could put my CV up here too but it would be rubbished as clearly unture even though it wouldnt be so I see no reason to bother.

There is a distinction being missed here between how much effort a teacher puts into what they do and how much time and extras they do. It seems that extras and time are somehow seen as the way to go. I refuse to go that way. I put a lot of effort into what I do. I do it well and I get lovely letters from my students thanking me afterwards. Thats all I need.

I am not a careerist. I am a specialist teacher doing what works ( from experience and results) for the students. For me that doesnt include (doesnt have to include) after school and Easter sessions and clubs.

Everyone is different. We all work in different places and for some of us the demands are different or we have found different ways of dealing with what is required. I will not disrespect those who need or want to show how much they do by committing all their time to their work. Its just that I have found a different way. One which gives me time to read around and gain more ideas and do different things. I am not focussed in on school exclusively.

Thats the difference. On mumsnet, careerist type teachers are valued. Thats OK. Lets just not have those of us ( which seems in this thread to amount to me) who are not giving every minute of time to a job are lambasted and chided for not doing what "everyone else" does. Does that explain it?

I suspect fivecandles will not stop until she makes me retract and take up her position. That wont happen. I have asked her to stop. I have asked others to stop ( with more effect) . However, I stop here.

Maybe someone will take this back to the original topic?

jabed can I ask when you say none of the academic staff are trained do you mean in SEN or do you mean they are academics rather than QTS?

mrz - you ask some reasonable questions before sailing off on an attack. Thank you.

We are not trained. I have QTS as do most of my colleagues but many of us were in teaching before the emphasis on inclusion and SEN. We have no INSET for this in my school because it is considered that we should have staff who are specially trained in SEN working with those who need it. We have a fully trained and qualified SENCO and her staff, all of whom receive training for their roles.

I have training for my role as do other teachers. I teach a number of ESL ( I am sure you can imagine that in a school like mine ) but I teach them in English. It is their responsibility to keep up. I have been told by the ACE dept ( Access to the Curiculum in English) to do this. They will deal with supporting the students needs in language and they do a brilliant job - better than I could as they are all linguists. The students do well. In January all of my five Chineese girls got grade A. Hey can you ask for more? I cant and wont. I leave those who do the job best to do it. I teach my subject, knowledge and evaluation skills etc and ACE ( who are ace!) do the language.

That is why I am a firm believer in specialists working with SEN.

mrz - I should have added , that although we all have QTS academic staff are considered academics in my school, thats why our title is " academic staff"

We also have a team of "pastoral staff".

wow this thread grown since i last saw it! jabed i attended a state school like the one you described earlier in the thread. pupils would spit paper through straws at the teacher, would call out BO to one particular teacher (unfortunately for her she had bad skin and overactive sweat glands!) pupils were generally not interested in learning. getting through the lesson yes maybe. so your posts truck a cord with me. did i think the teachers were good teachers/ or cared. they were very average in my mind. teaching in a very functional way. results were very poor and only 4 people from my year went to uni, myself being one. i might add nobody in my school mentioned that word university. i got there entirely by fluke through clearing.

so just to sum up there are some incredibly shit schools out there. operating daily churning out mcdonalds working and the future 40 year olds who will be living in poverty, chain smoking and living on benefits. yes i do think its a culture within the area/ via the family that perpetuates. without a doubt.

did those teachers enjoy their job, maybe to some degree but without a doubt theyd get less hassle ie disruption and more job satisfaction working in a private fee paying school where the kids actually understand they have to learn and need their exam results to be fantastic! or they wont get on in life

for me i didnt realise how shit my secondary school had been until i got to uni, surrounded by green welly people. i could barely keep up!

Thank you for explaining

"We are not trained. I have QTS as do most of my colleagues but many of us were in teaching before the emphasis on inclusion and SEN. We have no INSET for this in my school because it is considered that we should have staff who are specially trained in SEN working with those who need it. We have a fully trained and qualified SENCO and her staff, all of whom receive training for their roles."

So how could a dyslexic student get a full set of GCSEs or A-levels if the subject teachers refuse to teach her? Has the SENCO got the qualifications to teach that?

Or do we just accept that no SN student ever gets qualifications and has a chance to go on to higher education? Speaking as a university teacher, I would be very sorry if this were the case as we would miss out on some very good students indeed.

My dd (who is not dyslexic but has other SN) is predicted 12 grade As at GCSE- would she really stand a chance of that if she was taught apart from the class by a SENCO?

fwiw I was also in teaching before full inclusion- the difference between us seems to be that I never saw teaching as something static where I would go on doing exactly the same thing in the same way until retirement; imho an inflexible atittude is not the hallmark of the best teachers.