Does social class over power gender at attainment in schools?

[Emily19]

Hello,
I am currently studying on an access to Teacher Training course. I intend to research "Does social class over power gender at attainment in schools?".

Any Information given is completely confidential, if you require a copy of any work I have used, I will be more than happy to supply you with a copy. (In your opinion)

• What are your views on Social class affecting attainment in schools?

• What are your views on Gender affecting attainment in schools?

-Which do you think has the greater influence?

Many Thanks

It seems that everyone is sick and deranged in this site. It takes one to recognise the other, I suppose.

Thanks mrz, in reaffirming what I said about Churchill re 3 attempts to pass his entrance exams.

Er . . . I don?t suppose you learnt your facts/history from Google ? anybody who thinks they can learn anything from Google, a search engine, is in serious trouble. But Google can show you to sites, 11.2 million of them in the case of Churchill, from where you might just learn something about the war time leader.

Fivecandles, believe me, I can see and I do know the difference between ?disrespect? and ?criticism? mightily well. It may surprise you to know that I actually agree with your post 100% except the bit about Emily which I will elaborate later.

I am no stranger to constructive criticism. My DS attends a school that does it all the time. They don?t mince their words in their school reports sent out twice yearly; reports that will both commend and constructively chastise you in equal measures as and when you deserve it. This approach together with other things is one of the many proven success methods that the school engages in that sees it continuously churning out great men/leaders over many generations/centuries to serve the nation (and the world) in every field you care to name. No prizes in guessing how my DS got into this school in the first place.

Yes, I?m all for constructive criticisms done in a respectful, sensitive and diplomatic way ? attributes that were sorely absent in the treatment of Emily. I?m just saddened by the fact that the OP, a self-confessed access student was unceremoniously consigned to the dustbin just because a couple or so words seemed out of place in her project title.

What is this place? An English language classroom?

And like she said, whoever gave you (her critics) the permission to improve her English? I mean, she?s not your DD, your child or your relative. She never asked for an English lesson; all she ever wanted was opinions to three specific questions.

Consider this scenario, a drunkard approaches and asks for direction to the bus terminal. He is then told off for being drunk and smelly.

?How on earth do you hope to reach the bus terminal when your speech is slurred?? asks one.

?I hope my child won?t be sitting next to you in the bus?, says the next.

?Sober yourself up first before you come and ask where the bus terminal is?, says the third.

And so it goes on . . .

I assume you aren't registed with Athens peteneras?

I think mrz may have quoted from Churchill's biography to make the point that he failed to get into Sandhurst three times because there were physical issues. It seems not to have been the case that his qualities as leader weren't recognised. But it's not an issue and I didn't make it one.

pete no, it doesn't follow that only the sick and deranged can identify similar types. five candles has said she believes jabed to be deranged yet she doesn't appear to be deranged in the slightest. My own posts are fairly cool yet you responded to mine with a grotesque one about diarrhoea. That struck me as well into deranged. There's no sound reason to whip yourself into a frenzy on behalf of Emily, the original responses to her dealt with her kindly and well.

What is Athens mrz?

I'm still stuck pete, even after having a bit of fresh air on the school run: how did your son get into his school? I'd have thought like everyone else at the school he passed a test?

Am I right in thinking that english isn't your first language pete? Or perhaps you're from the US (divided by a common language etc.) If I'm right about that then perhaps that's why you don't seem to get the points that posters have been making a) about Emily and the relevance of spelling/ grammar/ concepts and b) generally.

pete, I'm not going to trawl through the whole thread but I've gone back to the first page and I've seen nothing that 'consigns Emily to the dustbin'. I have seen totally valid and measured criticisms of the wording of her research and her approach to it.

Part of the reason why people couldn't simply respond to her questions is that her research topic didn't make sense and it wasn't clear exactly what she wanted to know or why. Many posters also felt it helpful to point out to Emily that anything they said on this site wasn't legitimate research but purely anecdote.

As has been said many times she wanted help specifically with her essay and this is what she was given. Sometimes the most helpful thing you can say in response to a poor piece of work is that it is a poor piece of work and to say anything else is misleading and unfair. Most students do respect this.

'She never asked for an English lesson; all she ever wanted was opinions to three specific questions.'

This makes it sound as though you can separate the English from the research and you can't. The fact is that a piece of research is worthless if it is not clearly expressed. Emily's focus was flawed in the first place and not just because it was so poorly expressed. Answers to her questions (which were very difficult to interpret) would not have helped her to create a decent piece of writing given that her title and her approach was so poor.

Athens is a framework that provides access to academic libraries and external databases, journals and academic research papers.

No, mrz I?m not Athens registered but I do have access to one of the UK?s most important libraries, together with other things, you?ll find one of the 21 surviving (complete) copies of the world?s rarest book - without doubt, the world?s most valuable.

Quote: My own posts are fairly cool yet you responded to mine with a grotesque one about diarrhoea.

Ffbloodys pete.

What incontinent drivel.

It?s ironic how anyone can claim to be cool when right in the middle of a civilized discussion should suddenly come out with the above and yet find cause to complain about my response.

how did your son get into his school? I'd have thought like everyone else at the school he passed a test?

you don't seem to get the points that posters have been making a) about Emily and the relevance of spelling/ grammar/ concepts . . .

Yes indeed, Yellowstone, like everyone else at the school, DS not only just had to pass ?a test?, but some very stringent tests in addition ? tests taken at age 12 and according to one Oxford admissions tutor on Mumsnet, are at a level with his/her Oxford 1st year students. I hasten to say DS?s place at this school was already guaranteed aged 10 when he won a full scholarship; the stringent tests mentioned above were for entry into a special elite group which makes the school?s top 5% with special privileges of which DS is one.

I take it that you don?t mean it but your point about me not grasping posters? points on the relevance of spelling/grammar etc. is rather condescending. How on earth do you think I managed to tutor DS (just an ordinary boy like any other) to the extent of achieving a full academic scholarship to probably the world?s greatest school if the fundamental elements of education like spelling/grammar/concepts etc. are not considered as relevant by me as you said?

Quote: I've gone back to the first page and I've seen nothing that 'consigns Emily to the dustbin'.

Either you are careless in looking or you just refuse to see, fivecandles but the following quote is taken from the first page itself.

If it is any consolation, you are not the first 'researcher' to be sent away with a flea in their ear.

Quote: Part of the reason why people couldn't simply respond to her questions is that her research topic didn't make sense and it wasn't clear exactly what she wanted to know or why.

As a matter of fact, more posters understood the OP?s questions than those who didn't, and duly proceeded to respond without making a song and dance of some grammatical errors in the post.

As has been said many times she wanted help specifically with her essay and this is what she was given.

Not trying to be difficult here but can you show me where in her post did she say she was writing an essay? I only read that she intend to research and wanted opinions to 3 specific questions. Some of you took it amongst yourselves to immediately assume that she was going to write a long individual thesis (which may or may not be true) but it is also possible her research project is only a (small) part of a wider effort done collectively with her peers and her individual findings can be presented in many ways such as column charts, line charts, pie charts, bar charts, area charts, doughnuts, bubbles, to name but a few.

'If it is any consolation, you are not the first 'researcher' to be sent away with a flea in their ear.'

No, I do not see how this is consigning Emily 'to the dustbin'. It is a comment on her approach to her research and the wording of her topic.

I really don't think students can afford to be so sensitive to criticism when they have so much to learn.

'Quote: Part of the reason why people couldn't simply respond to her questions is that her research topic didn't make sense and it wasn't clear exactly what she wanted to know or why.

As a matter of fact, more posters understood the OP?s questions than those who didn't, and duly proceeded to respond without making a song and dance of some grammatical errors in the post.'

It is nice that you continue to defend Emily even though it seems she's long gone but I still don't think you're doing her any favours and you seem to be missing the point.

Some people responded to the OP's questions after INTERPRETING the question in a way that made sense to them.

You shouldn't have to read between the lines or try to work out what the OP was getting at.

I repeat if the focus for the topic is not clear, what hope for the essay?

And, as for this,

'Not trying to be difficult here but can you show me where in her post did she say she was writing an essay? I only read that she intend to research and wanted opinions to 3 specific questions. Some of you took it amongst yourselves to immediately assume that she was going to write a long individual thesis (which may or may not be true) but it is also possible her research project is only a (small) part of a wider effort done collectively with her peers and her individual findings can be presented in many ways such as column charts, line charts, pie charts, bar charts, area charts, doughnuts, bubbles, to name but a few'

again, it's so nice that you want to give the OP the benefit of the doubt, but if the OP's research was supposed to lead to charts based on stats then her approach is even more flawed since she is beginning it by asking a bunch of random people on a website about their personal opinions in response to a question which doesn't make sense. This is really not going to lead to anything you could make bar charts out. It does not constitute 'research' at all.

It's nice that you're being so nice to Emily but sadly, defending weaknesses and making excuses does not lead to improvement.

The OP has not really been told anything that a half-way decent tutor wouldn't say i.e.

you need to:
clarify your focus
improve your expression and accuracy
learn about research methods

and, this is not an acceptable standard for academic research.

This is the sort of feedback I give students all the time. I often tell them to go away and do a bit more work. And this is how they learn and improve. It's one thing praising someone's effort (when they've put any in) but it is unhelpful to allow someone to get away with substandard work.

pete ffbloodys/incontinent drivel are merely expressions of exasperation at the quality of the discussion, which tbf was dire. Your response - something about diarrhoea - was unwarranted and revoltingly crude. Certainly an indictment on the author.

In answer to your next post: yes, I did mean it. And I don't know how you 'managed to tutor DS' to the world-beating school he's now at but, based on the paucity of grammar and logic displayed in your many posts, I would have thought with some difficulty. Unless of course he has - obviously very resilient - natural talent.

You mention 'stringent tests' that are at a level with Oxford undergraduate tests. I'm sure the school tests aren't designed to be easy, nevertheless an Oxford undergraduate is likely to answer the same question in a different way to a twelve year-old. Same question doesn't = same level of response.

Don't wish to repeat myself here, fivecandles but if you had paid attention to what I said earlier about constructive criticism etc. then you?d have seen that I said I agreed with you 100 percent. But as it were, the treatment handed out to Emily by some posters has permanently driven her away. Why don?t you go back and have another look at her last posting what she said about some of the posters here? So, instead of helping her, it seems we have now permanently lost her.

ffbloodys/incontinent drivel are merely expressions of exasperation . .

There we have it from the horse?s mouth, someone who?d have us believe she is ?cool?. Her integrity is now questionable.

And I don't know how you 'managed to tutor DS' to the world-beating school he's now at but, based on the paucity of grammar and logic displayed in your many posts, I would have thought with some difficulty.

It is painfully clear there are lots of things you don?t know, Yellowstone but I can?t say I?m surprised. And it wasn?t me who said the stringent tests are at a level with Oxford [1st Year] undergraduate?s but an Oxford admissions tutor him/herself. You?re just been hard-headed and ridiculous, the emphasis here is on the level of the tests which naturally demand a response to the same level. If you think there?s an easier way out by opting for a response of a lower level, then good luck to you. Maybe it?s best you educate your DC your way and leave me to educate mine my way (no matter how ?difficult?).

Yes, a typo can happen to anyone - not only to Emily.

You?re just being hard-headed . .

LANGUAGE.....yes social class will have its advantages. Partly because when a child has their first day at school, they are likely to be pretty well-advanced if they come from a middle class home. No one thinks the is a "level playing field" in that respect.

I cant resist saying that anyway, the Coalition may have sold off all the level playing fields to builders. Good luck with your training

[rofl] MN threads are so deliciously organic

peteneras are you living your life through your DS?

Quite the opposite zeolite, other than being a parent-child relationship, both of us are fiercely independent as it should be. You can bet your mortgage I'm my own person.

Good to know DS is fiercely independent peteneras.
I am also happy to lose zero on the bet!

You ARE repeating yourself pete and I don't think you're really listening to what I'm saying.

The criticism here has as far as I can see related to the OP's research focus and methods which are entirely valid. Indeed, she has had a lot of very good advice on this thread.

She is going to have to raise her game considerably or to develop a slightly thicker skin or both if she is going to make progress academically.

If she is going to do an access course then train to be a teacher and then teach she's going to have to get used to critical feedback and more importantly she will have to learn from it.

And, pete, once again, it's not 'typos' that are impeding Emily's clarity. In fact, I can't see any typos at all. But, once again, if she is not able or not willing to take the time to make sure that her topic is clear and accurate and that she is approaching her research in an appropriate way it really doesn't bode well for the piece of work itself does it?

pete - By 'cool' I simply meant that, however exasperated I was at the quality of your argument, I expressed my exasperation in measured posts, rather than resorting to scatological insults. Either way, I don't believe that it impugns my 'integrity.' My 'integrity' isn't relevant.

I don't understand what exactly it is that I so clearly don't know. Naturally there's an enormous amount I don't know in general, but perhaps you could be more specific? Anyhow, knowledge is not the same as imagination or intelligence.

I do know that an Oxford admissions tutor said that the questions your DS was asked are on a parity with Oxford undergraduate tests; you said so. But that is irrelevant - the point is that the same question can be answered in many different ways. For instance, if two A-level students are asked the same question, and one gets an A* and the other gets a C, then this is because the levels of their answers are different. The same will apply to the undergraduate/twelve year-old scenario.

None of this is to cast aspersions on your DS's ability in any way - he's obviously very bright.

As far as my own DC are concerned, I let their teachers get on with educating them. My role is to curb their wilder exesses on the X-Box etc. Anyhow, so far so good :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :o :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)

She is going to have to raise her game considerably or to develop a slightly thicker skin or both if she is going to make progress academically

She is going to have to raise her game alone ( at least she is trying). Elsewgere though you see no problem with helping your own students raise their game to pass exams at target grades even though that requires your extensive cheating... oops , sorry support. I would wager that those with SEN would have poorer English skills than the OP but would not be likely to be sent off with a " flea in the ear".

A tad hypocritical.