Does social class over power gender at attainment in schools?

[Emily19]

Hello,
I am currently studying on an access to Teacher Training course. I intend to research "Does social class over power gender at attainment in schools?".

Any Information given is completely confidential, if you require a copy of any work I have used, I will be more than happy to supply you with a copy. (In your opinion)

• What are your views on Social class affecting attainment in schools?

• What are your views on Gender affecting attainment in schools?

-Which do you think has the greater influence?

Many Thanks

If I ever get funding to carry out the research I'll be in contact

It is something praised by the exam boards, OFSTED, parents and teachers. It is part of the reason why I work in a grade 1 department in a grade 1 college.

You assume I dont? My dept has a grade 1 from ofsted. I have an outstanding teaching acolade too. My school has a reputation amongst the top in the country ( it deserves it. The staff are first class). Of course we are in the top of the league tables too ...... and all this without coursework , and without twilights and cheating oops I mean support of course.

Be my guest mrz. I am not planning on going anywhere . You can contact via mumsnet.

Blimy, Jabed. You work in a school where parents pay but don't even get a classroom and have the misfortune to have a teacher like you who refuses to offer support outside the classroom or extra-curricular activities. I would say they are getting a pretty rough deal!

Yet, you continue to assume that you get better results than I do without knowing anything about my results at all!

'These are blatant lies.

No its not. I have paraphrased the things you have said yourself.'

Where have I said that I am a hypocrite, a liar and a cheat??

'You on the other hand have made false accusations about me.'

I have said you refuse to offer any additional support to students or offer extra-curricular activities. In fact, you have said that expecting teacher to do such things is tantamount to 'abuse'.

You have said yourself that your opinions could be seen as 'crass and insensitive'. You clearly have no understanding of special needs.

And you have poor spelling.

'I am supposed to accept I am a job worth who shouldn?t be teaching because I don?t need to provide extra support for my students but when I point out that much of that support time and coursework help you give is misconduct, you don?t like it.'

Jabed, are you so ignorant that you don't realize that support and misconduct are not the same thing?

I have said I offer support to my students which might range from a mock Oxbridge interview to conducting a speaking and listening assessment outside of lessons for a student who has missed time because of the death of her father.

Please show me where I have been involved in misconduct.

You CANNOT because I HAVE NOT.

You are therefore lying.

Fivecandles,

I realize that support and misconduct are quite different but the things you have said suggest that you have crossed that line. It is obvious therefore that you do not recognize the difference, especially as you insist on continuing this debate and continue to hurl personal insults.

It is also clear from your posts that you have failed to realize the line between what is vocation and what is jobs worth and how much time should be given as good will before it becomes part of an abusive package by an employer (be it state school or private).

Your behaviour is unprofessional because you are doing too much in terms of unpaid after school support (in the pursuit of what? Targets? Results? You think it?s expected and havent realized where the line is?) You are accusing others who do not follow your pattern or share your view as being ?jobs worth". Worse, without any evidence you accuse me of being an unsuitable person to be teaching because I refuse to share your ethic of additional hours as part of the "vocation" ( my results and classroom teaching is most likely a match for yours we have no evidence that one or other is a more effective teacher or has skills more appropriate, and besides we have to accept that as no change because there is no evidence otherwise).

The thing you fail to realize is that doing more classes, after school activities and Easter revision (unpaid - and the union would be unhappy with that situation if they knew by the way) is not the same as being an effective and dedicated teacher.

You speak as if you are the only person who is prepared and able to work with students . You are the only person who understands SEN. The only person teaching mixed ability classes , and you are so good of course that only you can both teach the ones who need additional support at the point where they are possible not ideal material for the subject and level they are attempting and also doing additional work with those Oxford candidates at the opposite pole.

"Wow" I am supposed to think? Well, I dont. I think you are stretched too thinly if that is the case. In my own school and most of those where I have worked, dealing with the support needs of the more challenging has been done by those trained and good at it.

Similarly, Oxbridge students are given their top up tips ( if they need them) by a colleague who expertise at that. Neither job becomes mine because I have other specialist skills.

I think you fail to realize the point at which you should step out and leave some kinds of work to those who do it best . I think you have an idea that a
"good teacher" has to be everything and do everything, and anyone not doing that is lacking in vocation or is a jobs worth, or worse incompetent.

So you cannot see the line between what is teaching and what is not and you cannot see the distinction between what is support and what could be construed malpractice

Just because I do not do additional classes (and even refuse) and just because I suggest there is a point ( which seems to differ from yours) at which I have done as much as I can in terms of teaching and the rest has to be up to the student , I am considered by you a jobs worth. That is an insult.

Suggesting that I am not a teacher, should not be teaching, am a jobs worth, that I shouldn?t be employed and that I do not do enough for my students are all insults and lies that you have directed towards me to invalidate me and anything I may say. That is also unprofessional.

jabed Tue 10-May-11 20:10:44

"I cannot believe that any A level teacher likes teaching SEN in their A level groups. Its got to make a hard job harder'"

jabed Tue 10-May-11 20:33:53

"fivecandles, no matter how gifted I would never take on a dyslexic in my subject. They simply wouldnt cope with the essays and amount of language skills involved."

I think you will find most university teachers are able to cope with dyslexic students though. Perhaps they have better training than yourself. Or just a better attitude. We regularly teach students with dyslexia, physical disabilities and mental health problems. We certainly can't refuse to teach students who need extra support. And why would we want to? With proper support many of them go on to achieve excellent results.

I guess that clearly demonstrates the dumbing down of the education system then and why we in this country are loosing our status as a top class educational provider.

When I was university lecturing ( yes I was an academic before I came to what I do now. I keep repeating I work part time and I am much older) lecturers were not required to deal with the special needs of students. The university had a requirement to make available facilities for such students to have equal access to the courses. This took ( and still takes ) the form of support centres for those with learning needs. We always considered it the students responsibility to ensure they used the support available for those experts in that centre for their needs. It was not considered my duty to meet their needs ( neither is it now). That was done by professionals.

As I said, we have a similar set up in my own school Those with such needs
(although few) have a support centre where they can receieve the help they need but I do trust that help does not include doing their coursework for them!).

Whilst it may appear different on the surface I suspect ( I know in fact because I have friends who are admissions tutors, deans of studies and academic tutors still) that selection processes are applied which you have no idea of.

Different subjects and depts ( and universities) have different entry requirements. I said in my subject I prefer not to take students with dyslexia because it is difficult for them to obtain a good grade. This is well known in my subject area. I dont see any such students in current school. Most students de select themselves from areas where their skills are going to be challenged beyond the oint of reason as they can obtain better grades for their efforts in other areas. Its no different to a student not selecting physics because they are not able to do the maths.

I know what I am saying is not politically correct but good intentions are often the road to hell. I could say all the things that fivecandles says and I would if I were in a setting where my real identity was on the line. I am just injecting a bit of actuality here.

sorry about the typo's I am somewhat distracted at the moment . I do not multi task well. Is that a special need now?

I think you will find most university teachers are able to cope with dyslexic students though. Perhaps they have better training than yourself.

I think you will find that most of the academic staff in universities will see dyslexia and coping as something the student with the difficulty has to take responsibility for. That has not changed.

What has changed within my acedemic lifetime is that such students can obtain support for their difficulties from the student support services where a special team of professionals can help them.

jabed, as a university teacher I spend a lot of time liaising with student services over students with SN. I also spend a lot of time on pastoral care, not because I have special training, but because pastoral care is expected of academic teachers. Unsurprisingly, students with SN often do require a fair bit of pastoral care.

My students take responsibility for working hard- this has not changed, but they cannot take responsibility either for the provision of special support or for the adaptation of teaching to their needs. I have to do that, with the help of student services. We have an excellent support centre, but they need to work in liaison with tutors.

I cannot see why this situation is so very different from that of a good secondary school where teachers liaise with the SENCO to provide good support for students who are still expected to take a good deal of responsibility themselves.

For instance the state school my dd attends. She is disabled, she is gifted, she works hard, she gets high quality support from the SENCO and from individual teachers and she is predicted very high grades. Sounds like a win-win to me. But you would refuse to teach her...

I would love to Stewie, but I dont think you need to know. I would reckon the admissions tutors would reject them anyway for whatever acceptable reason, so no need to worry there.

But you said it cory - she gets help from the SENCO.
If individual teachers/ academic staff want to be involved in my experience that is up to them. I know loads of teachers who do take that interest.

Personally I do not want to. I do other things which I have skills in and am far more interested in. I dont see a controversial issue here, other than I have said what seems to be the unspeakable. Its unacceptable to say it. But I know many like minded privately ( mind you even I am guilty of appearing not to agree or at least remaining silent , when I think something may have been voiced where it might have been diplomatic not to have done so). I know many strategies used by others for avoiding dealing with such matters too. I see many colleagues in lots of places apply those strategies but because they dont say anything, thats OK.

I am the same. I am guilty here of speaking the unspeakable it seems.

As I said earlier, you cannot know what people really think , so accuse me of being uncaring and trying to state that "everyone" thinks differently is just not on.

What has happened is that a lot of people are silent because they do not wish to get into the trip I am on here. Indeed I wish I had kept quiet too. It wouldnt have changed what I think or what I do or dont do. it would just mean I wouldnt get attacked for it.

Another man with a mission then Stewie?

Fortunately you will never find out and so never be able to take your action
(Thank God for that) Freedom of thought is still possible in this country, although freedom of speech is significantly eroded.

Besides Stewie, there is no violation.

The school I work at and the university depts I worked in were making reasonable provision for candidates so that they were not discriminated against. What a lot of folk seem to get wrong here is that the DDA means that everyone has to accept a person regardless.

Under the rules that is not the case. It says reasonable provision and of course it has to conform with health and safety and similar matters as well as suitable medical provision. There are exemptions under the latter category.

"But you said it cory - she gets help from the SENCO."

Help, yes, but the SENCO does not teach her; she makes suggestions to dd and the teachers about how her problems are to be overcome. The teachers teach her.

You otoh explicitly said that you would not have a child with SN in your class- so who do you think should be teaching children like my dd?

Do you imagine the SENCO is qualified to teach all subjects to GCSE or A-level standard?

'I realize that support and misconduct are quite different but the things you have said suggest that you have crossed that line. '

Where?

What a strange set of assumptions you make, Jabed. In fact, I teach a course where there is only coursework at the very end of A2 by which point students pretty much know what grade they've got. We allow and expect a huge amount of independence at this stage. The coursework only amounts to 20% of the entire A Level so it's hard to see how it could be used to 'force up' grades even if we did write it for students which once again, we don't. It's also hard to see how malpractice past internal and external moderation especially given that we expect each student to come up with his or her own unique coursework title based on his or her own choice of extracts from his or her own choice of texts. In GCSE we have moved to controlled assessment so there's no coursework at all.

When I have been discussing support, that is what I meant. In fact, very little of the support I offer relates to coursework at all.

If you had bothered to ask me any of this instead of leaping to totally bizarre conclusions based on my response to a parent's experience of coursework in a different school on a different thread, you would have spared yourself the embarrassment of a rather pathetic and inaccurate set of accusations.

'It is also clear from your posts that you have failed to realize the line between what is vocation and what is jobs worth and how much time should be given as good will before it becomes part of an abusive package by an employer (be it state school or private).'

I have a lovely work/life balance thanks. I work part-time so I can collect my kids from school each day. I get 13 weeks holiday a year. I don't start marking in the evening until my kids have gone to bed.

Most of the support I offer students is in breaks, lunchtimes and free periods but not every one. Students also know that I usually respond quickly to emails. At weekends I do anything from 4-5 hours work to nothing at all. At the moment, since my students are all about to sit their exams and I can't get any more marking back to them, it's nothing. During the long summer holiday of 6 weeks I might do the equivalent of 2 or 3 days including going in on results day and counselling students and analysing results.

You will find that most teachers offer support to their students and/or extra-curricular activitities freely and willingly as part of their commitment to their job and their students. The other thread on extra-curricular activities will give you a sense of how many teachers are or have been involved in extra-curricular activities at school. It will also show you that this is part of the job that a lot of teachers actually enjoy.

I love my job most of the time. I enjoy being with students most of the time. I don't love marking but I do it because it comes with the territory. BUT I also have a lovely family life and many interests and hobbies which teaching allows me to pursue.

The notion that I and other teachers like me are somehow 'abused' is beyond ridiculous and probably downright offensive to them and to those people in jobs where they are expected to work 9-5 and the rest with a maximum of 3 weeks holiday per year for less money with no final salary pension scheme and all the rest of it.

It is not just me that finds your views peculiar to say the least. Other posters have suggested that you show a 'worrying lack of commitment' and it was another poster who called you a 'jobsworth'. Most people will find your views about teaching atypical and undesirable.

I notice that you have been made redundant from one post and you must work very few hours in your current role as you have said you only earn £10,000 a year. I'm not going to leap to any assumptions about why you were made redundant or why your current school seems happy for you to work so few hours, but I do wonder if it might colour your view about workload and commitment. Of course, you have very little need to bring work home when you work so few hours and I can see why you feel little connection to the wider school community for the same reason. Again, I would just urge you to think about ways in which your own experience is very different from that of most teachers.

'Your behaviour is unprofessional because you are doing too much in terms of unpaid after school support (in the pursuit of what? Targets? Results? You think it?s expected and havent realized where the line is?)'

What on earth are you talking about? In whose view am I doing 'too much'? In your view any teacher who does anything for which they're not paid is doing too much.

In fact, I'm not doing anything after school at all at the moment except for marking in the evening. I'm at the school gates at 3.30 picking up my own kids.

It amazes me that you feel you are in a position to make judgements about the way other people choose to spend their time or their professionilism.

'Worse, without any evidence you accuse me of being an unsuitable person to be teaching because I refuse to share your ethic of additional hours as part of the "vocation" '

You refuse to offer students any support or get involved in any extra-curricular activities outside of your paid hours in the classroom. You also refuse to teach children with SEN. THAT Is what makes you unsuitable to teach.

I believe that if you were honest about these views at interview no decent school would ever employ you.

In contrast, I don't believe I've said anything which would cast doubt on my ability to teach or my commitment to the job or my students.

'The thing you fail to realize is that doing more classes, after school activities and Easter revision (unpaid - and the union would be unhappy with that situation if they knew by the way) is not the same as being an effective and dedicated teacher.'

If that is addressed at me, I have never said that I've done any revision sessions during the holidays that was unpaid.