Does social class over power gender at attainment in schools?

[Emily19]

Hello,
I am currently studying on an access to Teacher Training course. I intend to research "Does social class over power gender at attainment in schools?".

Any Information given is completely confidential, if you require a copy of any work I have used, I will be more than happy to supply you with a copy. (In your opinion)

• What are your views on Social class affecting attainment in schools?

• What are your views on Gender affecting attainment in schools?

-Which do you think has the greater influence?

Many Thanks

IME, yes, social class can have a much bigger impact on a child's attainment (academic at least) than gender. TBH I think there is a fair bit of research on both of these issues out there. The reasons will be explored in those.

I think social class has more to do with it, very simply if you look at the most competitive universities there is near enough a 50:50 gender divide. However the social classes of the intake are not 20% each from the ONS social classes I-V.

I guess on a very very simplistic level IF you believe intelligence to be genetic for what Jabed is saying. To get into Oxbridge/Imperial/LSE/Durham/medical school/dentistry/magic circle law firms you need to demonstrate intelligence (AAA, 2.1 etc) if you work in those areas you will be seen as 'middle class' and then will pass your brainy genes to your DCs.

Reality is far removed from this though with many sociological, biological, cultural and environmental factors.

so in a word OP; Yes.

Single sex education is more beneficial to girls I believe, boys have a better outcome in coed schools.

Emily when you came on MN a few weeks ago and asked the question for the first time I suggested it was a bit hackneyed and thought maybe your tutors might prefer something a bit more original? Clearly you thought that a duff idea.

The quality of teaching in schools is so clearly and so obviously one of the most crucial factors in pupil achievement that if aspirant teachers think re-hashing old truisms with a smattering of anecdotal experience from MN is the way in to the profession then we as parents should probably despair.

For those of you who've said you worry for your sons, please don't. I see plenty of boys in my DC's co-ed state school who are doing exceptionally well. Overall attainment isn't markedly different between the sexes despite the doom and gloom that some posters have attempted to convey. Boys do tend to get into reading later etc. but in the past few years there's been a phenomenol output in publication of boy-friendly books. Lots of educationalists seem to think that's really important. Boys work ethic does tend to be slacker on the whole too. But various strategies from schools and parents all help. My DS1 who has three older sisters happens to have outshone them all without being obviously cleverer: same primary and secondary school, same parents (and so same environmental and socio-economic background),the gender thing clearly is not set in stone.

jabed Both those studies prove working class children fail: neither proves they 'have no work ethic'. Not the same thing at all, and you're confusing them.

I know this is an access course, and not a PHD but have they given you no training in research Methods Emily?

Try looking at the work of David Jesson, in particular work around the educational attainment of pupils' mothers.

If you really want to know what we think- how about reading up on the subject, forming your own opinion/hypothesis, posting what it is that you actually think is the greater influence, and then asking us whether that has been our experience, or whether we have found the opposite to be true?

FWIW, I believe that social class has far greater impact upon educational attainment than gender.

This doesn't mean that no children from lower social groups will not do well. Nor does it mean that all children from higher social groups will do well.

However, all the evidence suggests that on the whole middle class children outperform working class children.

This may be to do with a number of factors.
-genetics

• supportive parents
• better schools and teaching
• higher aspirations

It may also take into account

• better quality food
• conducive living environment

-access to educational materials.

• good health

It is probably a complex and individual mixture all all factors.

I would also add that I think another factor which often affects the attainment of people is the 'keep them down to size' mentality encountered from others.

This thread adequately sums it up.

Someone comes along, wanting to better themselves and access a course. Clearly that person has not had any/much exposure to academic strictures vis a vis research.
Said person is met with derision and patronage.

Classic.

crystalChandeleir, OK you win. I have no problem with what you say. Working class boys fail. In my 20 years of experience of teaching , they fail because they do not have a work ethic. They are lazier and lack motivation, no matter what kind of teachers they are given. Thats just how its been in my opinion. The OP asked for an opinion.

I believe there
is research which does show that w/c boys are not motivated to attain anything at school. However, I am not going to look it up just to have a debate with you. Its my opinion. Thats all there is to it.

wordfactory - I agree. Thats why I tried to help and interpreted the question from my own reading ( something others could easily have done too).

In school teaching ( especially in the maintained sector ) its one of the first things you learn - not to put a kid down but to answer them, encourage them and of course later direct them to a better/ more appropriate answer.

I think the crucial difference is that we're not talking about a kid Jabed but an adult embarking on the first stages of a teaching career. If somebody is not capable of stringing together a grammatically correct question as the basis of a research project and has very clearly not considered the project properly at all then you've got to wonder what kind of teacher that person will make. If any of my A Level students came up with a question so badly worded I would tell them to think again too but at HE it's just not acceptable. This is somebody who believes she is in a position to teach others but has clearly not mastered basic English or essay writing skills.

It's a very important topic. White working class males have done pretty badly apparently because middle class women have had more changes. Class trumps sex a lot of the time. However whether that is so with exam results may not always be the case. It's the ability to shine at interviews and make contacts and keep customers happy that your accent and class may help with as much as ensuring you get AAA at A level. The easiest way for some children and indeed adults to get on might be elocution lessons (and looking at how they dress) as much as doing an MBA in their 30s to try to get promotions.Cheaper too.

No fivecandles, we are not talking about a kid. Neither are we talking about a person embarking on the first stage of a teaching career.

What we are talking abou t here is a person ( adult) who missed out on education in their younger years and who probably has a limited educational background and few qualifications but who is trying very hard to make up for that and attain in one year a level of education which will enqable them to embark on the first stage of teaching.

An access course is desigined to give those who did not do well in school to get a second chance as adults. They will have net all the put downs before so they do not need it again now. At least she is trying. Access to HE is not easy and I admire any adult whose background is by definition limited within the education system having the guts to try and I am not going to fail them for poor grammar or articulation. Many might even be considered those working class individuals who seem forever disadvantaged by the system in schools.

Access is not A level. It is in effect sub A level . It is level 3 which would make a good pass at access more or less on a par with a grade E pass at A level - but that is good for anyone who comes into such a course with little or nothing to achieve that in a year. Its the starting point. She has time to hone the academic skills later. She is not required by the access course to do more than demonstrate the ability to identify and research a topic.

More so I learned teaching such access students that they have poor self concept and confidence to start. You do not need to put her down. She will know her short comings and limitations better than you think. In my experience most access students go on to university and do very well. Other than my own A level groups who I love teaching because of committment and work ethic , I would take a bunch of access students willingly any day . I am not here to sit in judgement or criticse . This is mumsnet, not a classroom.

I take your points jabed BUT I maintain that somebody with such poor grammar and essay writing skills is going to struggle to be an effective teacher. If this person is sub A Level then an access course is not going to supply her with the basic skills she obviously needs. Maybe that's a harsh message but I'm not sure we're doing anybody any favours by accepting poor standards of communication in aspiring teachers.

And you're right that Mumsnet is not a classroom which is why it's rather odd that somebody should use it as the starting point for her research instead of say, a classroom....

Well, I might have to ask what her tutor is doing? In my experience of teaching access tutors are there to guide the research project.
However it has been set up, it should have been passed by her tutor as viable before she comes here .

It may just be that she simply wants a few anacdotal opinions to fill out her work, the basis of which is essentially a discursive sociology essay.
Since we do not know, lets give her the benefit of any doubt shall we?

As for standards of English. I have seen worse passing GCSE at C or above in school and far worse accepted onto degree level education in universities, even when the standard has apparently ( according to tests and exam passes ) been reached.

It would be kind to remember that this person has had to attain that grade C or better in one term. Same with maths and science and IT ( GCSE equivelent would be accepted from an access course.) as well as working to a level 3 standard in three other subjects. Usually sociology is core to this.

The thing is, whilst you may not think it a good idea, universities are quite happy to accept access students for teacher training on those skills as you see demonstrated for a degree course. If the admissions tutors are happy, thats what matters.

You're asking the 6,000,000 dollar questions. Can't believe your tutor allowed such a potentially huge subject as your topic. If anyone could come up with the answers to your questions many of the basic problems in British education would be solved after all.

All that aside, take a look at studies in Northern Ireland on attainment gaps between working class Catholics and Protestants, girls and boys. 'Educational Underachievement and the Protestant Working Class' paper here.

Could you sun it up for me math ?

My ipad is hating links at the mo.

The statistics show that even among Catholic and Protestant boys receiving free school meals, Catholic achievement outstrips the Protestant. The set up of NI schools is discussed (segregated along sectarian lines and usually the segregation reflects a maintained/ controlled divide too), plus differences in culture, with education long valued in the Catholic community even at the lowest SE levels perhaps because of traditional exclusion from the usual working class routes to steady employment, whereas the Protestant community, which traditionally got the solid manufacturing jobs straight out of school, doesn't hold educational attainment for males as a high priority (maybe an element of 'reading is for pansies' whereas manual labour is what real men do?) -- there are hints of problems in the male culture of the unemployed (formerly working class) Protestant community that affect self perception which in turn affects educational attainment. Protestant girls at the free school meal level are also affected. Grammar school results are better all round though maintained grammar school pupils did better. The 11+ still marks the life-deciding fork in the road for NI children. Brief and a bit garbled...

Wow - interesting.

Since historically the RC community have been worse off financially (overall ) than their protestant counterparts, I would ahve expected the opposite.

But the reasons you give, make sense.

jabed, you have invented a whole backstory for this person which is really quite bizarre. In fact, all we have to go on is her choice of question for an essay which is so badly worded it actually doesn't make sense and the fact that she chose to ask that question on this site. THAT is what I am responding to and not her imaginary life story.

It's lovely that you're prepared to give this person the 'benefit of the doubt' but frankly I don't see how that's doing anyone any favours and where does it end? If your children were being taught by someone who struggles to communicate clearly would you also give her the benefit of the doubt? If you were her tutor assessing this essay would you continue to give her the benefit of the doubt.

I wouldn't expect a student even at GCSE, no even at primary level to come up with a title which is so poorly expressed and ill considered. I would be outraged if a student of mine decided to begin their research on a site like this without considering it properly first or approaching their tutor for advice. It's just not acceptable to approach academic study in this way especially given this person is hoping to become a teacher.

BTW, I teach students in a very deprived area.

Increasingly, I think we do students a disservice by praising everything they do even where it is obviously shoddy and being very afraid to be critical.

This year I have had to explain to a student barely making E grades and with very poor literacy skills that law is not a realistic career for her. I think it's wrong that she has got up to the age of 17 under this illusion.

If the OP has got to this point without learning how to use basic English or how to go about writing an essay then I think it's about time somebody DID tell her that she's going to have to raise her game considerably if she's going to become a teacher.

I think, which relates to the OP, that too often we allow students to grow up with completely unrealistic ideas about the connection between ability, hard word and future careers but also we expect too little of students especially working class students.

I am not inventing any back story for anyone. I just propsed a possibility. There are many others. I am simply not willing to be judge here.

There are many and political reasons why we offer praise where none should be and allow students to pursue courses they should not be on. That is true in FE as well. But I dont believe its my place ( or yours here) to say anything to the OP.

I too have worked in deprived schools ( very deprived schools). Its nothing new. There are many such.
Now I work in a top school and I find it very easy to give well deserved praise to my pupils. Most do work hard and that is often translated into much better results than similar hard work might in state schools I am sorry to say. So there is more to this social class thing than meets the eye.

However, I think its time to put this one to bed now. The OP has her opinions.

Emily: I wish you well in your studies.

Look, I am NOT judging the poster, just the post. In fact, that's all we have to go on and it is sort of how this site works.

How on earth is anyone supposed to learn or improve or recognize one's own strengths and weaknesses if nobody points out your mistakes?

You wouldn't want someone training to be a doctor who is unable to diagnose illness and you wouldn't want a taxi driver who's no good at driving. It wouldn't be fair on them or on their customers/patients. I don't get what's wrong with saying teaching is not an ideal vocation for someone who lacks basic communication or essay writing skills and it's not going to be ideal for her students either.

By all means praise an individual's strengths and praise efforts but I don't think it's fair on anyone to allow people to go through life with totally unrealistic expectations or not to allow them the opportunity to evaluate their abilities and make decisions accordingly.

Wordfactory -- the experience of a previously privileged class in a brand new environment (NI) points to the experience of boys as a whole in today's more egalitarian education system and society, imo. Boys who haven't lost status continue to do well but boys who have lost even that status that went with male privilege of yore are floundering.