Help! Ex fiancé wants 5050 from birth!

[Baby3at40]

Has anyone else had an ex want 5050 from birth?

My ex left a month ago when I was 30 weeks pregnant and has emailed to say he wants 5050 from birth. With the help of women's aid and a good friend who's a family law solicitor I wrote back saying that he can have 3 hours a day, SIX days a week at the home in order to bond with baby and let baby settle in to her routine with me.

This isn't enough apparently! He wants 5050 from birth.

I stated to be reasonable this routine will last for the first 15 weeks of baby's life and we can revise and see how it's going then.

I think that's reasonable is it not?! What's people's experiences of the father wanting 5050 from birth?

My son has 5050 with his dad and is so happy but that was after his dad and I lived together when he was little and 5050 began when he was in school. I'm not opposed to that happening in the future but surely at this stage it's literally baby steps?

Help. Very anxious at 34 weeks pregnant here 😩

I love how people are still giving advice to OP on the birth and breastfeeding despite the updates 😂

Actually she isn’t clear whether they’re con parenting or back together: the latter is not necessarily a good thing at al based on her posts

It was an abusive relationship and he's still trying to manipulate you Do not engage cut all ties let him go to court and rescind the 18 hours a week that gives him too much time to further manipulate you Don't have him on the birth certificate Take back all the power !

Hi everyone. Thanks for advice and I should have clarified my latest update.

Babies dad and I are back together (NOT living together) and I am happy with the effort he's making. Not with me but on himself. Thanks to the freedom programme I have put excellent boundaries in place.

He needs to work on himself a lot more than he needs to work on 'us'. If he can successfully work on his issues, we will be in a good place as a couple.

Currently he's dealing with his issues of insecurity which is I believe why he leaves and demands, trying to exert control so not to be let down, not to face the possibility of someone leaving him first.

He's doing really well and manages to communicate rather than just leave when he's feeling a certain way. Which is huge.

I'm not even thinking about moving in together, I'm enjoying my time with baby, our routine that I set that he has to slot in with and enjoying the help that comes when he does come over to stay.

I'm in a good place with boundaries and a partner that is working to better himself. Whether it works out or not between us, it can only be positive for baby that he's trying to work through his issues.

A lot of the answers to this hinge on whether he will have parental responsibility for the baby. If he doesn't, he will have far fewer rights. Sorry if I'm telling you something you already know, but if you're not married and you don't name him on the birth certificate, he won't have parental responsibility, and therefore you will have the final word on any decisions made for your child, because as the birth mother, you will automatically have parental responsibility. Not trying to sway you, but if it gets difficult, then just something to think about. Here's some more information. www.kabirfamilylaw.co.uk/what-rights-does-a-father-have-to-see-his-child/

@Runki please see update below.

Technically you are correct but it is almost inevitable to prevent acquisition of PR once a man decides to apply for it. It might take some time but it’s a stalling tactic at most if the man wants to be in the child’s life.

@Baby3at40
I’ve done the freedom programme and you’ve missed the entire point of it if you are in this situation with the man who compelled you to do it in the first place. the freedom programme ain’t there to enable to you participate in an apparent rehabilitative exercise with your abuser . It is there to educate you and stop you ending up in the same situation again. If I was the person who’d run your programme alarm
bells would be ringing for me. Reconciliation with the abuser is not the intended outcome. This is larger because the sad fact is most abusive people don’t change their behaviour. I hope for your sake this turns out not to be the case but if you described his behaviour as “textbook abusive “ then be realistic and protect yourself and your baby. You can’t do parent with an abuser.

*isn’t not ain’t

@Whiskeypowers the point of the freedom programme as was described to me was how to recognise abuse, how to recognise an abuser and how to stop putting yourself in the situation where the abuser can have an effect. To set yourself the correct boundaries and to teach them you will not accept the behaviour. This is what I've done which has resulted in him realising he needs to change.

They have also offered us couples conselling as a part of this so that he can understand what abuse is in a relationship. We've agreed for him to do some solo work first before we then hammer it home with the couples conselling in the freedom programme.

Some abusers don't change because they want to control. Some abusers control because they're afraid of the change and will leave them vulnerable.

My partner has shown vulnerability since I've set my boundaries and has shown a lot of work on himself to manage how he feels when vulnerable.

Not everyone is able to change of course but his desire to change is evident and I'm happy to continue to see the transformation while continuing my set boundaries.

I'm really happy with the progress made so far and long may it continue.

Yes it does teach you all that but it’s not a standard event or anticipated outcome of the course that this results in you returning to the abuser in any way shape or form.

it is intended to future proof your decisions around new relationships and partners in terms of boundary setting.

I’ve also never heard of domestic abuse programmes planning couples counselling where own person is abusive. That’s is because where abuse is present in relationships the dynamics of power and control are skewed, so this is curious to me.

I really don’t want to piss on your chips because I know what it is like to love someone and want them to change. Most of them don’t. Abuse of any form is about control and subjugation. I find your narrative about abusers controlling because they’re afraid of change and being vulnerable concerning. Abusers don’t control because of that fear. They control because they seek power and dominance in an intimate relationship setting. The only thing that they are possibly said to be afraid of is that you are strong enough to leave them, but that in itself doesn’t make them vulnerable. It gives them rage.
You aren’t able to set boundaries with abusive people because they will not allow you to.

@Whiskeypowers if you don't believe you can set boundaries with an abuser because they won't let you then it's you that's missed the point.

You set your own boundaries, and if you stick to it, this means an abuser cannot abuse you. They then have 2 choices when they realise your boundaries are stronger than their control - they can find someone else to control or change.

My local council has a couples conselling for those that have children and want to rekindle the relationship while in the freedom programme. They don't sign you off from the freedom programme until they are satisfied that both the previously abused and the child are safe and the previous abuser has learned that their behaviour is wrong.

You can set boundaries with an abusive person but they will never respect them unless they are no longer an abuser.

You have not had the time to be sure this is the case. You may never really be sure. The Freedom programme is not run and offered in order to salvage abusive relationships from the jaws of death, it is run in order that you stop the cycle and generally it is not anticipated that you return to that relationship. It would not be considered a success story. If you were co parenting but not in a relationship again it might be different but this in itself is still very challenging.

the fact remains that most abusive people do not manage to change because it involves a level of transformation that brings them nothing that another victim who will plug the gap will provide instead: someone who is not yet aware of how they function.

right now you are back in a honeymoon phase and that’s evident from the way you write. You have had a baby he is promising you all these things and you feel strong because it’s all good right now. There is a pattern here whether you want to see it or not. He is showing you and telling you what you need to hear. Living the reality of that as a couple under the same roof again once support goes is something different. I hope for your sake things work out but what is right for you and your daughter may not ever be her parents in a relationship again if he reverts to type as most inevitably do.

Do not put him on the birth certificate

@Whiskeypowers they are not run to salvage abusive relationships you're right, but they do offer couples who have young children that would like to explore the relationship again, relationship counselling in order for the abuser to recognise that they are being abusive. It's just as eye opening for an abuser what they are doing sometimes.

A good example we used. If I wanted to wear a dress that I didn't deem as revealing, partner deemed it as revealing, partner didn't want me to wear it. His logic which he's not aware is abusive, is that men will be able to see my boobs, not a nice thought for him. That's his only goal, men not seeing my boobs. He's not even aware that it's controlling at this point. The freedom programme can explain to those who are blinded by various things (poor role models for example) that what they are doing isn't right. I think it's amazing and a big eye opener for the abuser.

The Freedom programme are trying to give the abuser some ownership over their behaviour - why should it be just the abused that has to attend the freedom programme to know what to look out for? They top, if willing, should be attending so that they can learn about their own behaviour and the effects of that behaviour on everyone around them.

Not many abusers will say yes to a programme like this, especially when they have children, as even by the attendance to something like this, they're automatically admitting that they have a problem as an abuser, so if it did go horribly wrong between us for any reason, the abuser is in an awful position if anything came to court. Contact with all of the abused children could be put in jeopardy as he's admitted to being emotionally abusive just by agreeing to be in the programme.

I believe in the rehabilitation of some people. Not all, but some.

Generalising is never an educated move, especially people as they are all so very different.

I appreciate the concern, genuinely. But your posts feel quite angry and that nobody is capable of change once they have done wrong.

So far, I believe they are. They may relapse and fall in to the same patterns, they may be a work in progress and have slip ups on the journey to better themselves (this being more likely in my case) but ultimately people can change but only if they really want to.

Some abusers want to stop and understand why they are doing what they are in order to stop.

Some abusers don't want to stop and would prefer to ride on this wave of control going from person to person exercising that control.

My partner is with me knowing he cannot control me. He knows he does not get reactions out of me when he does slip up very mildly as we work through this. I simply highlight what I've learned and remove myself from the situation. That leaves it up to him then to decide whether to look at what he's just said or done and try again or as always and each and every time, he has the option to walk away - I don't give him any other options as I've learned some amazing skills in the programme.

I'm sorry you feel that my partner isn't being genuine, so far by what I can see, he is.

@Baby3at40
I said I hope things work out for you.

you don’t need to write a massive post to me a fortnight later trying to convince me otherwise. I have my sadly lived experience of this over a much longer period of time than you in a very similar context. He did not ultimately change and in fact used the involvement of agencies to the extent he hoodwinked them and I was subjected to another few more years through court and all sorts of worse horrors. The domestic abuse support organisation I still have a support worker with years later would never run counselling like this at least not as a bare minimum the abuser had completed extensive DAPP successful assessments and there were no long term safeguarding risks. I am assuming your partner has not been on a DAPP given the timeframe and the work you now say you are doing jointly.

I continue to find some of the ways you are trying to explain to me and the examples used concerning and I wonder how in such a short time frame you’ve gone from feeling terrified to describing yourself as in control and dissecting examples like the revealing top analogy to me in some sort of empowerment from abuse for dummies manual.

I truly hope for your child’s sake things work out at least in that you are never in the place again. I stand by everything that I wrote in my previous post though.

I am now safe and happy. But not with him.good luck to you

So @Baby3at40 using the top example....in that instance do you now wear the top and your partner has to learn to control his worry/jealousy?

Or do you give in and not wear the top ?

I now wear what I want, he's doing work on understanding that my choice of clothes has nothing to do with him (he's not stupid he knows this) but he had in the past struggled. We were recently talking about a dress that was cut a certain way on the top and he's not a finished article but he kinda smiled and just said "you'd look stunning in that". Which to me translates as "I need to work on my issues that people may be drawn to some cleavage in that dress but you'll look good in it and my issues shouldn't be your issue".

It sounds daft but it was a really nice moment. All I care about is progress, and that is progress in the right direction.

Some abusers want to stop and understand why they are doing what they are in order to stop

Some abusers don't want to stop and would prefer to ride on this wave of control going from person to person exercising that control

And some abusers want to know what their victims are told to look out for so they can dress the abuse up a different way to get away with it.

Having to explain why things are controlling to someone who doesn’t know why or does know why just sounds manipulative and controlling.
What a waste of your time.

@Kennykenkencat how do you suppose you educate an abuser and rehabilitate them?

You're saying there's no room for rehabilitation. If they're an emotional abuser that's it, their fate is sealed.

It's amazing, I thought I was coming on mumsnet to interact with intelligent women.

But instead just full of women so scorned and closed minded because of it, that they cannot intelligently see that some men and women can in fact be remorseful and be rehabilitated. Some cannot.

I've not done a thing in the past 5 months that I didn't want to. I've not been made to feel pressured, controlled or anything like I did before. And at the beginning I was looking out for it a lot. Just to be on the safe side I look out for it now too. It doesn't come.

We live apart, I see him on our terms, when it's convenient for us both.

He has to slot in to the routine and life In creating for the baby as she is with me full time. She never stays over at his. I never stay over at his as she's with me every night.

Even though baby is only 5 months I've had to return to college for my course Monday - Wednesday. I've made a new bunch of friends this year and a new life that's apart from him which he respects. He's met a couple of them, I had a couple from college round for dinner, and invited him, it was lovely.

This is a very different life to what I had before.

I feel safe, in control, happy and I'm happy that however small, he's making steps forward.

I'm really disappointed with this forum, the anger at someone suggesting that someone can be rehabilitated and remorseful just screams that those women are hurting themselves and are using others posts to vent.

Their ex was abusive and didn't want to change therefore every man is the same?

Women, we are much better than that.

@Baby3at40thanks for answering. I am glad that you are living life on your terms. You sound so much stronger than your first posts.
I hope everything works out OK for you and your family.

Ironically myself and others you would now have pigeonholed as scorned and hurting were in fact telling you you yourself were better than that.

you wrote in one of your earlier posts on this thread - and six months or so later is not a long time - that agencies were concerned you would be manipulated into an arrangement or resolution, I paraphrase but you get the gist. You can revisit your own posts.

i do sincerely hope you continue to emerge From this stronger but that may be through what you have learned and will not tolerate as opposed to whether long term this man can sustain a level of behaviour that most in this scenario do not.

and just for the record I am not scorned. I also know my own self worth and after much longer that what you have endured I know it does not include trying to accommodate and explain the behaviour of a man who was abusive and ultimately unrepentant. Knowing there would not be a happy ending with him has given me one of my own.

I used to facilitate the freedom programme - it was NOT for abusers - what has changed?

They have two strands, one for women and one for abusers, as well as a children's version (our DS is 10 and has SEN and can be aggressive to our DD, and our DD was offered the children's version. I'm not sure it's that helpful because she already knew that his behaviour wasn't her fault...)

My mother was my abuser,
I was put into care, my mother would see counsellors and psychiatrists and then when they thought she was well and could cope and knew for want of a better word her triggers they would give me back to her.
Only for a repeat of the same months later.

This happened less and less as I got older as she learned to hide what she was doing by wrapping it up in money and words that to someone who didn’t understand what was going on it looked like I was the ungrateful horrid one and she came out like a saint.

The only thing the counsellors etc did was teach her to hide the abuse

For a lot of people being abusive is who they are, it is part of their personality. It is what they enjoy.

I know someone who thought they were in charge, everything was on their terms and would tell people how abusive her husband was but when she fought back and he got counselling he was tamed.

I only met him once briefly and from the few sentences he spoke to her, it was very subtle the words he used and I know most people bought into her powerful woman, my man loved me enough to change act but I could see the similarities between my mother and this guy after she had learned how to hide the abuse. He hadn’t stopped the control and manipulation he was just approaching it in a way that looked reasonable to the outside world
The control was still there