Man going for 50:50 custody

[toobusytothink]

Male friend of mine is going for 50:50 custody of his two sons. He is an incredible dad and genuinely wants this - it isn’t to avoid child maintenance - he genuinely believes the kids would be better off with him and he is and has always been a very hands on dad. His ex is likely to oppose it and has no idea - she thinks he will be asking for EOW and one night a week. Any tips on best way to ensure he gets this?

Who is ever going to know who is posting a problem when anyone in the world can be on here and if op had said this was her problem exactly what difference dies it make!? I'm quite sure a lot of stuff posted coujd br about anyone? I've never understood this name change as could be touted thing?

@Timeforredwine

Who is ever going to know who is posting a problem when anyone in the world can be on here and if op had said this was her problem exactly what difference dies it make!? I'm quite sure a lot of stuff posted coujd br about anyone? I've never understood this name change as could be touted thing?

Makes quite a lot of difference if it’s your own problem or you have actually witnessed / experienced the situation I would say

It’s also different to speculate that there might be issues but to assert them when you’d don’t know first hand is not on

The most up to date research shows that shared care is generally the next best thing for children, after living in a happy home with two parents. Scandinavia and Australia are streets ahead with this so most of the research comes from there so far. Findings show that spending at least 35% of the time with each parent leads to the best outcomes - so a 60/40 or 50/50 arrangement (or 35/65 I guess) is likely to be the best. And this was independent of financial status or conflict in the parents' respective circumstances. Obviously any unsupervised contact with an abusive parent is to be minimised if not avoided, but there's a difference between abusive and not good enough. Just because someone hasn't been an involved parent doesn't mean they can't (or shouldn't). So yes, the starting point should be 50 50, for the good of the children, and adjusted from there as individual circumstances dictate. The research also says that children and young people don't talk about having two homes as an issue. Most children are quite adaptable and I suspect home comforts aren't as important as they become to us as adults. Probably the most important thing is to be open to hearing what the children involved think and feel, and I'm fully prepared to change our arrangement as necessary as they get older.

@Misty9 you have nailed it. The majority don't want 50/50 as they like the control and power and are not thinking of the children. Truth be told they also see the "father" as a mere hindrance and pain in the ass.

If the children are at the houses 50/50 why would they need to be lugging stuff around wouldn't they have their stuff at either house so only thing lugging is school bag

Thank you. Some have focussed on my relationship with the man and have chosen not to believe me when I say he’s a colleague and nothing more - something I explained once and wasn’t believed so I can’t be arsed trying to argue a point I can’t prove and why does it matter anyway. Of course colleagues talk about things but because it’s a male/female friendship obviously I want to get in his pants 🙄despite having an incredible boyfriend of over 2 years who knows the “man” in question well too.

And if people actually listened to what I asked, I am not even advocating 50:50 as the best thing. I just wanted advice/feedback so he could think about it properly before (and I said this before) he goes in all guns blazing and caused unnecessary arguments and upset. I was actually trying to help diffuse a volatile situation believe it or not and make him think things through and ensure he is doing it for the right reasons. And those of you who talked about things like dentists, living close by, keeping a diary of what he exactly does etc etc this is all really important. Because he should only fight for it on my opinion if he believes it is in the best interests of the kids and he can genuinely do the full 50%.

And yes I did slag her off and apologised. I don’t know her and shouldn’t have commented about her anxiety. I do only have his word for things so thank you to those of you who warned me about potential red flags etc too - again useful when done in a non-confrontational way and I’m sorry for those who have been treated badly by openly “good” men. I don’t defend them. I tried to get the thread deleted but I’m not allowed to so clearly I have done nothing wrong in writing about other people. But in hindsight I should have just asked about benefits/pitfalls of 50:50. I have been in mumsnet long enough to know factual threads are always better and kinder.

And I actually haven’t given my opinion once on a 50:50 set up. I haven’t attacked people who have this set up and told them that they are ruining their kids’ lives (unlike other posters who had a go at me for being unpleasant!) - I haven’t judged anyone (except for his ex and again I apologise for slagging her off ...) Some have said it works, others criticised it. Some posters have been positively rude about other people’s set ups. I’m sure these people didn’t appreciate having their parenting style slagged off. It has been thought provoking and helpful sometimes. And at others just nasty.

I am actually divorced and have my kids virtually all the time and I have never once said that is for the best or that I deserve a medal or that that is correct or not. I honestly, genuinely just wanted feedback on how a 50:50 childcare set up works and what it requires. To help out a friend who just happens to be male. If I “ignored” people who were talking about other setups it was not because I was fixated on only hearing things I wanted to hear - I don’t give a monkey’s what they decide - I don’t know what is best, I don’t believe one thing is better than another. It is individual preference and what works.

So thank you to those who have talked about their experiences, positive or not. And to those of you who are just on here to try and catch me out and prove to the whole of mumsnet that I am the man or at very least his OW well I’m sorry but you can’t. Because I’m not. But thank you too for your comments.

Thank you @Misty9 - very interesting

@Misty9

Finland and Scandinavia are light years ahead of this in terms of how women and families and equality work so it’s highly aspirational to apply their models to this country.

There are so many conditions upon shared care working that I just don’t think are always present or sustained in a great number of relationships. The number of CAO would indicate this to be the case. I’m sorry but I also disagree in this idea that children are better in tow homes if they came from one happy one. Increasingly abuse in all its forms is often behind separation as well as of course infidelity or people simply falling out out of love. Children are more exposed to these machinations and make more intelligent observations than we understand even from an early age. I know this myself. Many women stay in unhappy often abusive relationships because they know the likelihood of it hurting their children in a very different way is possible. Not all women or men are happier out of the failed relationship due to the reasons I have cited. Often their ivies are made a misery by shared care form one parent. This all affects the children.

Also the fact remains that most children by and large for different reasons and at different stages of their life will probably prefer one base for the majority of the time. Unless parties live very close to each other two homes half the week affect hobbies, social life and there is constant disruption.

I think it’s unrealistic to say every child in shared care has two lovely homes and that everything works well.
If that is the case for you then good for you and you are both receptive to the idea of consulting them and making changes if needs be then brilliant and that’s how it should be. But a lot of the time it isn’t.

[quote Coseynightin]@Misty9 you have nailed it. The majority don't want 50/50 as they like the control and power and are not thinking of the children. Truth be told they also see the "father" as a mere hindrance and pain in the ass.

If the children are at the houses 50/50 why would they need to be lugging stuff around wouldn't they have their stuff at either house so only thing lugging is school bag[/quote]
In an ideal world yes

I’m not saying that all men are shot or all women are outstanding mothers however, you only have to read some of threads on here to know shared care is sometimes about escaping maintenance and exerting control more than filling a house with beds, clothes, food, toys and all other resources practical and emotional to see it’s not always the case.

@toobusytothink

I don’t think you need to explain your life or circumstances to us. If I am one of the people who made you feel you have to do that then I apologise for that . I don’t want to upset anyone on here even if at times I have disagreed with aspects of the discussion with them

If you’d just asked about how easy shared care is in real life without all the stuff about his wife the thread would have unfolded differently, but think that’s been done to death now.

In any event let him tread that path for himself and find out. If he is as keen to wash his stbxw’s supposedly dirty linen with you then he’s fair game for doing it with anyone and a good father and man doesn’t do that

Good update OP. Personally, I don't think it's an issue for you to comment on another woman - it's not like it's in any way identifying so I've never understood the upset when this happens.

For me, the issue was the potential red flags raised by the comments you were expressing which clearly come from him - and I'm pleased that you're at least alert to these now. I hope that we're all being overly negative and he is a genuinely great dad who wants 50/50 and will absolutely step up and do it.

@Cleverpolly3

Thank you - I agree.

Although many women openly slag off their exes to their girlfriends so not really sure it’s fair to criticise him for talking to me about her. I was the one in the wrong for then sharing that on here.

It is genuinely interesting to see how diverse opinions are on this. Guess the reality is that there are incredible mums and incredible dads and rubbish mums and rubbish dads. There are some mums who don’t let their ex see the kids and dads want them more. And there are some dads who sod off leaving the mum up shit creek and there are both mums and dads who play the system to get or not pay maintenance. There are mums and dads whose motives are selfish and about control and winning. There are lazy mums and dads and every relationship and set of circumstances is different. I support any decision made for the right reasons. I guess I mentioned what I have been told about her because if I believe him then that means she would fight against 50:50 just to spite him rather than for the right reasons. But I understand she may also be the loveliest person and have fallen for a load of crap 😄.

Guess divorce is just crap no matter what. And I always feel for the kids 😔

@SpaceOp thank you. I do too

I could find the actual research done in Sweden, though I found a couple of articles about the research. It doesn’t convince me that 50/50 is necessarily best for children overall. I would like to see more research into how various types of contact affect outcomes for children and child wellbeing.

I just read that Just 2% or custody arrangement were resolved by courts in Sweden and mediation is affective for most separated parents. I wonder what the statistics are for the UK? I wonder if child well being is more linked to how amicable the arrangement are than by the actual % of time each parent gets (eg maybe more parents who have amicable relationships post separation agree to 50/50).

I do think more research would be interesting and useful. Though obviously that would only underpin a general approach and individual circumstances and need would need to be taken into account too.

this seems to be a good summary of the research but I agree, undoubtedly more needs to be done. And the existing research does say that the most successful outcomes come from non court mediated arrangements.

Thank you @toobusytothink and yes I have felt personally attacked for my parenting arrangement. This thread has made me doubt myself and question whether I am doing the right thing. That is not a bad thing of itself, but I have found some responses to be unnecessarily unpleasant.

I'm certainly not saying that all shared care arrangements are done for the good of the children, or involve two happy homes. But just asking that it not be dismissed out of hand that it could work - for the children.

In the end, what the op said is the crux of it - divorce is shit and everybody suffers at least in the short term

I just read that Just 2% or custody arrangement were resolved by courts in Sweden and mediation is affective for most separated parents. I wonder what the statistics are for the UK? I wonder if child well being is more linked to how amicable the arrangement are than by the actual % of time each parent gets (eg maybe more parents who have amicable relationships post separation agree to 50/50).

Yes to all of this. I'd also be interested in knowing how reliability of respective parents impact overall outcomes? again, could be a total generalisation, but the few Nordic people I know, the men genuinely are far more involved including in relation to the thinking (I totally concede however that this is based on 3 families I know personally and a vague sense from the media/comments etc). Which means that 50/50 or any kind of breakdown for that matter is likely to work better because the child knows it will get the same level of care and attention wherever it is, both parents turn up on time for their contact etc etc.

The single parents I know (admittedly, none are on 50/50) are all in situations where the dad is 100% just parachuting in and is considered to be doing well if he can keep child well fed and healthy during his time. They have zero interaction with the school or other school families, play dates are ONLY arranged during the mum's time etc etc. They are regularly late to pick kids up/drop them early etc. This, I am convinced, has a huge impact on those children because as others have pointed out, it means they really do have an entirely different life when with their dad.

I think it would be so much easier if one person could say that in every situation when parents split up the best set up is .......

But the reality is there are so many different factors to take into account, including whether parents get on, how close they live, jobs etc etc etc. It’s just impossible to say. I’m sure we have all tried to do the best thing but it’s so difficult when these decisions are made at an incredibly emotional time when one or both parties probably feel upset, wronged, angry ... guess that’s why I’m trying to help my friend take all the emotion out of it and actually think about it practically and with empathy

Great update op. All well put. Dont feel you need to apologise for asking a question or looking for opinions.

That it needs to be at least 35% of a child's time with a parent for the most positive outcomes was independent of parental conflict, so that would suggest its the increased time which facilitates a better quality relationship. And that is the predictor for better child outcomes. I would say however that the research is inconclusive when it comes to under 3s and shared care.

OP, you are right that divorce is crap for the kids (I am divorced).

I'm a bit shocked that 50:50 seems to be becoming normalised. It wasn't when I divorced, 6 years ago. Then, residence was based on maintaining the children's status quo as far as possible. So if they had had a SAHP, then that parent would automatically have them for a greater proportion of the time, unless there was a very compelling reason for them not to. I think this is a better yardstick. A (male) friend of mine actually tried to get 50:50 about 15 years ago (he worked ft, and his wife worked pt - both medics). He ended up with one night per week and EOW. In practice, this has worked ok for everyone.

My DC were teenagers at the time, so it was irrelevant. I did, however, make sure I lived close to their father so they could come and go easily, depending on how they felt. I have always been the 'base', though.

Has your colleague thought about exploring the option of the children staying in the family home (or a smaller family home, if the main home has to be sold), and the parents taking it in turns to be at home with them? I know someone who does this. It's a bit crap for the parent who has to stay elsewhere (the mum has rented a tiny flat, and the dad has a girlfriend to stay with), but it's less disruptive for their children - and it seems better for the parents to take the hit of having to do the to-ing and fro-ing, rather than the children. The resident parent then obviously has to shoulder all the day-to-day parenting, homework, PE kit, permission slips, etc, etc. I know it might be ruled out financially, though.

@Nimello thank you. That is what I do too. “My” house is the base but they know they can go to dad’s whenever they want. Again teenagers so easier.

That is actually what they were doing for over a year I think. If I’m allowed to discuss their circumstances and hoping it’s not outing .......Kids stayed in family home and mum and dad each spent 50% time at that house. The other 50% mum went to her bf and dad went to a friend’s or his parents or AirBnB (lockdown allowing !) But a few months ago she changed her mind and said she wanted to be at home more.(one reason he thinks she won’t agree to 50:50) So they now have a couple of nights a week in the same house and it causes arguments. Plus they can’t agree on house work, food shopping etc .... so unfortunately I don’t think it’s sustainable. Think they both want and probably need a clean break from the sound of it. But personally I think it’s a fab idea in principle

Mn is all for equality yet when it comes to kids some don't think 50/50 is right and should be mum who gets more
When my auntie left my uncle he actually kept the kids full time and they stayed at their mums some weekends and hols and that worked fine for them and they all have good relationships
No reason he can't go 50/50 as long as he can prove care is in place and its in kids beat interests

OP, if that's what they were doing for a year, I'd have thought that set a precedent, meaning that both parents had demonstrated that they are willing and able to take on the 'grunt load'. Living together is absolutely not feasible or desirable if they can't agree on anything; it's also confusing for the children.

One thing I was told by my solicitor was not to leave the family home, as it could be used by XH's solicitor to 'prove' that the children didn't need me to be around; and that I didn't need more equity from the house, as I would be demonstrating by my actions that I had reasonable alternatives.

If your colleague and his ex wife have already both demonstrated over the course of a year that they have a feasible alternative to disrupting the children any further, I would have thought that would work in his favour.

This whole thing baffles me. I split from my husband 2 years ago and there wasn't even a moment when I didn't think 50/50 was just standard. Our daughter loves us both and wants to be with us both. Us deciding to separate shouldn't mean that she doesn't get to see us equally.

It's beyond my comprehension that mothers believe that they should be in the driving seat with it all. Why do they believe that they should be making the decision? I just genuinely do not understand it. Saying that the child needs one primary place to live is an excuse in my eyes. If that is the case then why should that automatically be with the mother?

Just to say though that if there are reasons why the child should be with one more than the other I.e crap parent then I get that. Otherwise I'm baffled.

The sooner the law changes for a more equal footing the better.

[quote BuggerBognor]@MillieMooBee in my case 50/50 is unsuitable because my DS has SEN (classical autism) and cannot “do” transition. His routines all involve him being in the marital home.

And there is no need to change the law - it’s already the default. The fact is an awful lot of men either don’t want 50% or can’t accommodate it with work.[/quote]
Good points made. I do think that many many dads DO want more access though but seem to be second class in these situations to the mother x