Page 2 | Is this sexual assault?

Louloulouenna · 2024-09-10T07:45:40+00:00

Hi there, I could really do with some advice. My 18 year old nephew has been accused of sexual assault. He was out clubbing with an 18 year old school friend. At the end of the night they were kissing and he took her hand and placed it on his clothed crotch. She said she felt uncomfortable so they stopped immediately. She is now saying that by placing her hand (gently) on his crotch this is sexual assault. Just to be clear she agrees with his version of events. Would really appreciate some opinions as his parents are in complete meltdown.

DancingPhantomsOnTheTerrace · 10/09/2024 10:28

Surely he knew that if she wanted to touch his genitals she’s more than capable of moving her hand herself.

Odd thing to say - that would be just as wrong as him doing it. He can't move her hand there without consent, and she can't touch his crotch without consent either.

BobbyBiscuits · 10/09/2024 10:34

If you're snogging someone, it isn't uncommon for either or both to go for genitals/boobs over clothing as the next stage of making out. If the person stops as soon as told to then I wouldn't call it assault. It's unwanted obviously, but in the circumstances not an out of order move to potentially try. If she found it gross then that's unfortunate, and of course her right. She doesn't have to talk to him again if that's the case.

LordEmsworth · 10/09/2024 10:40

For what it's worth I think it was absolutely a bad and wrong thing to do (obviously) but I don't believe it is classified as sexual assault..

Your emphasis on "gentle" implies that you think "assault" must involve aggression and violence. However, for example, the Met's definition of sexual assault is: The overall definition of sexual or indecent assault is an act of physical, psychological and emotional violation in the form of a sexual act, inflicted on someone without their consent. It can involve forcing or manipulating someone to witness or participate in any sexual acts.

I think you agree that she did not, in fact consent? And I think it would be a stretch to think there was nothing sexual about it?

So the "grey area" is, was this an act of manipulation resulting in physical, psychological or emotional violation. You're saying it isn't, and she is wrong to feel violated by being manipulated into a sexual act, because it wasn't aggressive, violent or intended to go against her will, therefore wasn't a "proper" assault. It's a shame that there are still people who think that of there's no aggression or violence, then it's not really bad...

Original poster

Louloulouenna · 10/09/2024 10:47

@LordEmsworth where did I say she was wrong to feel violated and manipulated? I completely agree it was wrong of him to put her hand there without consent.

In describing what happened the girl used the word "gently" herself. It's not my word.

OP posts:

MorrisZapp · 10/09/2024 10:50

When snogging, hands wander. Nobody has ever asked me if they can put a hand here, a mouth there etc. It just happens unless and until one party stops it.

Is it literally asking a question? Can I move your hand to my trousers please? Can I brush my hand past your boob?

Rory17384949 · 10/09/2024 11:01

I would say no unless he held her hand there when she wanted to pull it away

AutumHarvestGlow · 10/09/2024 11:02

Going forward he's best asking before he puts his hands anywhere . This was just a clumsy attempt to try and take things further not a sexual assault .

AutumHarvestGlow · 10/09/2024 11:03

MorrisZapp · 10/09/2024 10:50

When snogging, hands wander. Nobody has ever asked me if they can put a hand here, a mouth there etc. It just happens unless and until one party stops it.

Is it literally asking a question? Can I move your hand to my trousers please? Can I brush my hand past your boob?

I'm afraid in this day and age yes . Better to be safe than sorry

outdamnedspots · 10/09/2024 12:06

Louloulouenna · 10/09/2024 09:19

No she hasn't reported him but is accusing him of sexual assault to their friendship group and sporting club.

This is not on. If she believes he sexually assaulted her she should talk to the police, not badmouth him.

teatimeplease · 10/09/2024 12:23

This is the definition of sexual assault by touching so all of the points need to be proven for the act to be an offence- for me it would come down to whether he reasonably believed he has consent 🤷🏻‍♀️

Startingagainandagain · 10/09/2024 12:46

If it is the case that they had purely platonic friendship before and this was the first time they kissed he should not have done this (put her hand on his crotch) and certainly not in public place (nightclub).

Whether the police would see it as sexual assault or not is another matter, but regardless it was really inappropriate, overly sexual behaviour in that context.

Lorelaigilmore88 · 10/09/2024 13:09

Onehappymam · 10/09/2024 09:57

Yuck.

What was he thinking? Surely he knew that if she wanted to touch his genitals she’s more than capable of moving her hand herself.

So then its okay for her to touch him and potentially be accused of assaulting him?

You're never going to know if it was assault for not, context is everything.
You don't get explicit verbal consent for everything sexual that goes on between people, certain things are implied. They were kissing, he progressed it, she said no, he stopped. Sounds fine to me.

And also if she truly believes she was assaulted, she needs to report it rather than just tell their friends and sporting club. I would be absolutely furious about that.

Lorelaigilmore88 · 10/09/2024 13:10

Onehappymam · 10/09/2024 09:57

Yuck.

What was he thinking? Surely he knew that if she wanted to touch his genitals she’s more than capable of moving her hand herself.

So then its okay for her to touch him and potentially be accused of assaulting him?

You're never going to know if it was assault for not, context is everything.
You don't get explicit verbal consent for everything sexual that goes on between people, certain things are implied. They were kissing, he progressed it, she said no, he stopped. Sounds fine to me.

And also if she truly believes she was assaulted, she needs to report it rather than just tell their friends and sporting club. I would be absolutely furious about that.

Newbutoldfather · 10/09/2024 13:17

Maybe he should say that he never consented to being kissed by her.

It works both ways.

RogueFemale · 10/09/2024 13:29

teatimeplease · 10/09/2024 12:23

This is the definition of sexual assault by touching so all of the points need to be proven for the act to be an offence- for me it would come down to whether he reasonably believed he has consent 🤷🏻‍♀️

Doesn't seem reasonable to me, to believe that the girl would be up for touching his crotch the very first time they kissed, and in public.

(And it seems very unlikely to me that he wasn't erect, an 18 year old boy).

Ruffpuff · 10/09/2024 13:43

No, I don’t think it’s sexual assault.

They were kissing. He tried to take it a step further and it got rejected, so it stopped. It would be sexual assault if he wouldn’t let her pull her hand away, etc. He misjudged her enthusiasm, but he didn’t force her. Also, I don’t think it’s easy to move someone’s hand to their crotch area with them being oblivious to what is being attempted, giving opportunity for the hand to be pulled away (assuming this wasn’t done forcefully as it was described as “gentle” - another matter if not). When kissing, people do tend to make further sexual advances, such as touching, etc. I think it was a bit bold and misjudged- something I can see an inexperienced person doing. He can learn from this.

I am a victim of rape so I don’t take a light outlook on SA…but this isn’t it.

I also find the fact she’s making sure everyone is aware of what happened is a bit strange too given the context. It’s like she’s purposely trying to embarrass and humiliate the boy. Trying to run with the traumatised victim storyline is quite insulting to people who’ve actually been SA’d and makes us all seem less believable. The last thing I want is for the “Me too” movement to be dragged away from it’s actual purpose and just become a man bashing opportunity.

Perhaps both of them should stay away from kissing in clubs until they are more mature.

twomanyfrogsinabox · 10/09/2024 14:05

Seems like an odd and rather crude first move, but putting his hand on her bum or touching her breast would have been more obviously potentially sexual assault and he may have realised he would be in dangerous territory doing that. Whereas he may have thought that her touching him with his consent would be alright.

I don't think this was a deliberate sexual assault (or even that he thought it was a sexual assault at all) and I hope the police wouldn't get involved. I wouldn't like to try to navigate teenage dating these days, it's a minefield, a good slap usually solved unwanted wandering hands of all sorts in the good old, bad old days and was universally understood.

BiggerBoat1 · 10/09/2024 14:18

Of course it’s not sexual assault.

Abbylikeswine · 10/09/2024 15:15

BiggerBoat1 · 10/09/2024 14:18

Of course it’s not sexual assault.

Yes it is. It is defined in law as sexual assault.

If a man comes up to you on the street,grabs your hand and put it on his penis,

Would you call that sexual assault?

Abbylikeswine · 10/09/2024 15:18

Some of the women on here annoy me.

They complain all the time on mumsnet about men sexually assaulting women.

Which as we all know, is at epidemic levels.

Yet when it's a teenager sexually assaulting a girl, there are loads of excuses made by women on this thread.

"Oh he's only young, he didn't mean to do it, i wouldn't like to be in the dating game these days".

It is sexual assault. Just because he's young, doesn't excuse him. He's an adult

BiggerBoat1 · 10/09/2024 15:36

The thing is, sexual assault needs to be taken seriously and needs to be addressed. When something like this is mis-labelled as sexual assault it trivialises it and that does no favours to women.

MorrisZapp · 10/09/2024 15:49

Abbylikeswine · 10/09/2024 15:15

Yes it is. It is defined in law as sexual assault.

If a man comes up to you on the street,grabs your hand and put it on his penis,

Would you call that sexual assault?

Edited

Show quote history

Yes. But it isn't what happened here.

Newbutoldfather · 10/09/2024 16:12

She instigated kissing him, presumably without asking for consent. Was that assault?

He then tried to take it further, albeit clumsily (he is 18!), and she wasn’t up for it, which he accepted.

If she thinks it is assault, she should report it, rather than trying to embarrass him in front of his peer group. If nothing else, it damages any chance she may have of getting a conviction.

Strikes me she has an agenda here. Whether it is to get him grovelling to her (therapy-really?!) or because she has someone else in the wings whom she doesn’t want to know about the kissing, who knows.

TheDefiant · 10/09/2024 16:15

MorrisZapp · 10/09/2024 10:50

When snogging, hands wander. Nobody has ever asked me if they can put a hand here, a mouth there etc. It just happens unless and until one party stops it.

Is it literally asking a question? Can I move your hand to my trousers please? Can I brush my hand past your boob?

Thing is checking in (asking for consent) can be really sexy.

It can be about verbalising all the things you'd like to do to someone and getting permission as you go. It can be whispered into your ear. It engages several senses and your brain. It's good for foreplay.

Something like

"May I run my hands all over your body?" whispered in the ear

Or "I am so turned on by you and want to kiss, lick and taste you all over - would you like that?" said with direct eye contact and a bit of confidence.

HRCsMumma · 10/09/2024 16:41

Onehappymam · 10/09/2024 09:57

Yuck.

What was he thinking? Surely he knew that if she wanted to touch his genitals she’s more than capable of moving her hand herself.

What, move her hand herself to his penis without checking first? Then she would be as bad as him.