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Victims of crime

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. For free advice contact Victim Support.https://www.victimsupport.org.uk/

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Original poster

Is this sexual assault?

114 replies

Louloulouenna · 10/09/2024 08:45

Hi there, I could really do with some advice. My 18 year old nephew has been accused of sexual assault.

He was out clubbing with an 18 year old school friend. At the end of the night they were kissing and he took her hand and placed it on his clothed crotch. She said she felt uncomfortable so they stopped immediately.

She is now saying that by placing her hand (gently) on his crotch this is sexual assault. Just to be clear she agrees with his version of events. Would really appreciate some opinions as his parents are in complete meltdown.

OP posts:

RogueFemale · 11/09/2024 01:31

I would like to add, in response to those saying this incident is a nothing burger, and/or so normal when we were younger growing up, etc, etc.

What happened to us was wrong.

It wasn't just one incident like this, it was multiple and constant, it totally undermined your confidence, it made you feel worthless, insecure, and wretched.

What this boy did was assault, the standard day to day sexual assault many girls experienced in the old days, when we were expected not to complain about it. Those days are hopefully over, and hurrah that the girl said no and is telling the world.

UnpropitiousNightmares · 11/09/2024 05:28

It's sexual assault, she didn't give him consent to place her hand on his genitalia - clothed or otherwise.

Perhaps it would be wise for him to read the Sexual Offences Act 2003 so he doesn't commit another offence in the future.

AlwaysGinPlease · 11/09/2024 06:17

Louloulouenna · 10/09/2024 09:54

Well that's what it comes down to isn't it - Is gently taking someone's hand forcing them? The girl concerned agrees it was "gentle".

Ugh. Listen to yourself. If she had wanted to touch it I'm sure she would. He's only a youngster but he's done the wrong thing. He needs to know that!

DownThePubWithStevieNicks · 11/09/2024 07:28

If he had to move her hand, gently or otherwise, she wasn’t doing that if her own free will was she?

When he is young and learning to navigate consent and sexual encounters, he can’t be operating on an ask forgiveness not permission basis.

Original poster

Louloulouenna · 11/09/2024 07:34

Thanks everyone for your responses. Just to clarify, the boy concerned is devastated and mortified by what he did. He was drunk which is obviously no excuse which is why I didn't mention it.

It has taken a huge toll on his mental health as he has been ostracised from his friend ship group and banned from his sporting club. Please don't pile on and say he deserves this as I am not in any way suggesting he is the victim here.

Anyway, my sister yesterday received advice that the incident is unlikely to meet the threshold of sexual assault so that's a weight off their mind.

Thanks again.

OP posts:

FoxtrotOscarKindaDay · 11/09/2024 08:04

Anyway, my sister yesterday received advice that the incident is unlikely to meet the threshold of sexual assault so that's a weight off their mind.

@Louloulouenna How are the girl's parents feeling? Not surprised this is the advice received because so few rapes are even taken to court.

His sports club should be lauded for taking a zero tolerance stance. Assuming his friendship group include young men of his own age, it is good to hear that there is hope for this generation calling out the behaviour of their peers.

His life isn't destroyed. He can go off to university where no one knows him and start again. Hopefully he will never repeat the behaviour and learn what enthusiastic consent means.

Abbylikeswine · 11/09/2024 09:02

All the women on here saying it is not sexual assault.

Taking a womans hand and putting it on their penis, is defined under law as sexual assault.

He should ASK her to touch his penis.

He can't put her hand there.

it doesn't matter if you think it was fine in the 70s / 80s whatever. Isn't that when Jimmy Saville was allowed to finger a girl on live TV? And when loads of men were having sex with underage girls?

We have thankfully improved in sexual assault cases in law since those days

Fleecedandzipped · 11/09/2024 09:05

RogueFemale · 11/09/2024 01:04

This is the Harvey Weinstein defence, - oh what a huge fuss about nothing.

I'm really glad things have moved on.

Show quote history

You're surely not equating the fumblings of an inexperienced teenage boy with the predatory, calculated and coercive manipulation of Harvey Weinstein?

BloodyAdultDC · 11/09/2024 09:10

Sdpbody · 10/09/2024 09:57

If I was kissing a man, and he moved my hand to touch his penis, I would be horrified.

If that had happened to me at 18, I would have been horrified, but in the 80/90s we were not allowed to be horrified. We just had to smile and say "no thanks". But luckily, this generation of women are saying "F OFF! Don't you dare move my hand to your erect penis, you pervert" and then are going to their friends "It was absolutely sexual assault, how dare a man do that to me, and other girls go "yes, it is my body and my choice".

Thank goodness we are now in a situation where men are getting called out for their shitty, aggressive and unnecessary sexual advances.

This. 100% this.

He moved her hand onto his erection. How on earth are you deducing this isn't sexual assault?

Jingleballs2 · 11/09/2024 09:15

So long as he stopped when she made it clear she didn't want to, no not sexual assault

Abbylikeswine · 11/09/2024 09:18

Jingleballs2 · 11/09/2024 09:15

So long as he stopped when she made it clear she didn't want to, no not sexual assault

Some people here don't understand about consent at all.

He can't do anything he likes to her. Then if she says no, and he stops, oh that's fine its not sexual assault.

He's already done it to her.

If a man walks up to me on the street and sticks his hand in my crotch. And I said no stop. And he stops.

He has still sexually assaulted me. And he can still be charged.

TammyJones · 11/09/2024 10:22

Devonshiregal · 11/09/2024 01:29

I’d be like ew if a guy did that because a) it’s too much from kissing to go to that, b) it’s in public so totally inappropriate and c) I’d assume he was going to be a selfish git as he was clearly only thinking about his dick rather than enjoying kissing her.

the public thing is probably the worst. How embarrassing and also not legal to be dry wanking a guy outside a busy nightclub (which is presumably what he wanted her to do?)

he was wrong and ew. It was a disrespectful move and I would assume he was an arsehole. good he stopped but basically he showed he saw her as a sex object, not anything more. Tell him he should only kiss girls he’a actually excited to spend time with on a personal level going forward - will help him avoid trouble.

I do think it’s great women are standing up for themselves. But it’s confusing as an older (not wildly older though) person because, as others have mentioned, we suffered so much casual abuse. I mean going to a club it was literally constant. Hands grabbing, comments, hands up skirts, tongues pushed in mouths by random blokes, aggressiveness. And it was just expected and accepted. And worse happened regularly. Even from bosses at work it was the same and I worked in a pretty ok environment. If any of the behaviour I was subjected to happened to a twenty year old now they’d be a sobbing wreck at the police station but we were expected to just roll our eyes and crack on with it. So glad things have changed.

but it does beg the question how do people go from kissing to anything further - implied consent etc. I mean does the woman (most vulnerable party) always have to initiate every step? How can a man go further without the ability to “try it on”? and if this woman had put her hand on OP’s nephew’s dick (strange sentence!) then would she be sexually assaulting him?? Or coercing him?

how does it all not become a stake mate where no one can move for fear?

Difficult one.
It's so different now as it should be.
My dh was so gentlemanly that he even asked permission to kiss me.

But in the past I've had a few 'less' respectful gestures.

One young person I know have said you need written consent before doing anything.

ZippyDenimBear · 11/09/2024 10:25

He has been ostracised- over that!!??!

Poor, poor lad.

Total overreaction.

I expect he's the traumatised one.

Abbylikeswine · 11/09/2024 10:27

ZippyDenimBear · 11/09/2024 10:25

He has been ostracised- over that!!??!

Poor, poor lad.

Total overreaction.

I expect he's the traumatised one.

I see a lot of Women are against sexual assault happening to them,

but they don't care and even mock it happening to other women.

If the girl feels that she was sexually assaulted, surely her feelings are worth being looked at.

FlingThatCarrot · 11/09/2024 10:27

Onehappymam · 10/09/2024 09:57

Yuck.

What was he thinking? Surely he knew that if she wanted to touch his genitals she’s more than capable of moving her hand herself.

But then that would be her assaulting him surely? Unwanted genital touching.

Abbylikeswine · 11/09/2024 10:28

ZippyDenimBear · 11/09/2024 10:25

He has been ostracised- over that!!??!

Poor, poor lad.

Total overreaction.

I expect he's the traumatised one.

It's good for him.

He will learn not to do things without asking the girl.

TammyJones · 11/09/2024 10:30

ZippyDenimBear · 10/09/2024 23:40

What a bloody insult to those who have suffered sexual assault.

It's a wonder there'll be any sex happening at all soon the way it's heading...

They were kissing, he tried to take it further. She said no, he stopped. The end.

Got to agree.
But I'm older and street wise.
I can handle myself and have done, even back in the day
Shit happens.
My hand would have got nowhere near his crotch and moment he tried to move it.
Men try it on - or used to.....

Abbylikeswine · 11/09/2024 10:32

TammyJones · 11/09/2024 10:30

Show quote history

Does it matter what we think of it at the end of the day.

If a woman thinks she was sexually assaulted, it's her feelings that are more valid than ours.

And if she wants to charge it, it's up to her

Combattingthemoaners · 11/09/2024 10:35

Hmmmm it’s not clear cut. Potentially because he put her hand there but then he stopped when she wasn’t comfortable. Like another poster has said, a valuable life lesson I think.

Abbylikeswine · 11/09/2024 10:36

I honestly think that it's women that keep the problem going.

You see so many threads on here talking about the absolute epidemic of sexual violence.

Yet when a young man does sexually assualt a woman, women right on here "oh that's an over reaction, that's not sexual assault"

Probably because the OPs nephew is the same age as many women's sons on here.

And no one wants their son to have a sexual assault record.

So women want the sexual assault violence to stop.

But will also immediately defend their sons/ nephews of they sexually assault a woman.

TammyJones · 11/09/2024 10:36

Fleecedandzipped · 10/09/2024 22:57

I have to admit that I'm rather astonished by this thread. When I was 18, that sort of thing was totally normal.

I'm absolutely flabbergasted that such a fuss is being made over such a small thing and I actually feel very sorry for the boy. Clearly he misread the situation and thought the girl was keener than she was. He interpreted her kissing him as meaning that she fancied him. An understandable assumption, surely? She told him "no", he realised his error and stopped. Surely that's the end of it?

Agree.
I would have laughed and pushed him off.
Normal fumbling.

aperolspritzbasicbitch · 11/09/2024 10:39

Why would he put her hand on his flaccid penis?

I would feel very uncomfortable if someone I was having a random snog with took my hand and placed it on his penis (erect, or otherwise), I'd certainly feel it was a violation.

Lovely news for him and his parents that it's not a problem in the eyes of the law though.

Abbylikeswine · 11/09/2024 10:39

TammyJones · 11/09/2024 10:36

Agree.
I would have laughed and pushed him off.
Normal fumbling.

Show quote history

Does it matter what you would have done?

It matters that the girl was upset and uncomfortable.

TammyJones · 11/09/2024 10:42

Abbylikeswine · 11/09/2024 10:36

I honestly think that it's women that keep the problem going.

You see so many threads on here talking about the absolute epidemic of sexual violence.

Yet when a young man does sexually assualt a woman, women right on here "oh that's an over reaction, that's not sexual assault"

Probably because the OPs nephew is the same age as many women's sons on here.

And no one wants their son to have a sexual assault record.

So women want the sexual assault violence to stop.

But will also immediately defend their sons/ nephews of they sexually assault a woman.

I see your point.
But this was a big nothing
The female was in total control
She stopped him as soon as she felt uncomfortable and he stopped.
He's young - lesson learned.

Abbylikeswine · 11/09/2024 10:44

TammyJones · 11/09/2024 10:42

I see your point.
But this was a big nothing
The female was in total control
She stopped him as soon as she felt uncomfortable and he stopped.
He's young - lesson learned.

Show quote history

I disagree with you.

She felt a penis when she didn't want to feel one.

She said no and he stopped.

Even though he stopped.

She has still felt a penis she didn't want to feel. That wasn't her choice

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