Is this sexual assault?

[Louloulouenna]

Hi there, I could really do with some advice. My 18 year old nephew has been accused of sexual assault.

He was out clubbing with an 18 year old school friend. At the end of the night they were kissing and he took her hand and placed it on his clothed crotch. She said she felt uncomfortable so they stopped immediately.

She is now saying that by placing her hand (gently) on his crotch this is sexual assault. Just to be clear she agrees with his version of events. Would really appreciate some opinions as his parents are in complete meltdown.

Completely agree with this. Him agreeing to go to therapy all because of this is insane.

What if the girl had been too scared or embarrassed to say stop?

Similar thing happened to me age 15, went to the cinema with a boy and he put my hand on his crotch and I didn't say stop for above reasons.

Not assault but my goodness it's brave and not endearing. But we were all 18 once so chalk it up to a silly move.

It's very poor sexual etiquette. Lots of replies here about natural progression to touching. That isn't what happened here: he made her touch him.

I'm old and extensively experienced, unlike these two, yet am repulsed by his leap from first kiss to "stroke my cock". It's selfish, entitled and tone-deaf. I wouldn't have called it sexual assault but young people are very clued-up on bodily integrity. Poor sexual etiquette often is sexual assault; they're right not to gloss over it.

I'm fed up with protestations about asking consent for everything! It's really not difficult - if you've never asked "Is this okay?" you've been doing it wrong all your life. Actually, being specific can be a turn-on and is not at all ridiculous.

If this lad had been specific with his words: "Stroke my cock", he might have realised he was asking the wrong thing!

Allow me an indulgent chuckle at His penis wasn't erect - they were standing at the front of a night club. 🤣 Is there something so unsavoury about the front of the club that it can quell the passion of an 18-year-old snogging the girl he's fancied for ages? It must be ever so disgusting!

@HRCsMumma if he needs therapy BC it's distressed him then I guess it's good for him to go. Unless he was aggressive in his approach and didn't let her take her hand away and withdraw from the clinch immediately then he was clumsy. He should have apologised, which I presume he did.
Not a sexual assault perpetrator. At least not from that action.
It's quite upsetting as I've been a victim of multiple sexual assaults and rape and never felt it was taken seriously by the police or anyone else. This was many years ago.
It's a good thing they seem to clamping down on it but it feels like in this case it's gone too far in the other direction.
And I'd never think I'd say something like that.

I have to admit that I'm rather astonished by this thread. When I was 18, that sort of thing was totally normal.

I'm absolutely flabbergasted that such a fuss is being made over such a small thing and I actually feel very sorry for the boy. Clearly he misread the situation and thought the girl was keener than she was. He interpreted her kissing him as meaning that she fancied him. An understandable assumption, surely? She told him "no", he realised his error and stopped. Surely that's the end of it?

I've had plenty of men I've been kissing put my hand on their dick and all of them have been erect! I'd have been quite bemused by the whole thing had they not. I don't think that actually makes a difference but I'll be amazed if that bit is true.

Anyway.

I don't think it would be sexual assault in a legal situation as I can see he reasonably believed he had consent. I don't think he needs therapy. He needs a good talking to about what's acceptable though.

Why do so many men think that as soon as you're happy to kiss them you're happy to start touching or shagging them?

I think for most women kissing is a separate and exciting stage and I hate how many want to rush past it. Kissing is fun but often ruined by having to repeatedly move hands away or push them back or explain why you don't want to start riding them on a dance floor.

I remember once after a series of unsuccessful online dates with men like this, one man kissed me, pulled away and said goodnight with the sexiest smile I've ever seen. It was pretty incredible to 20 year old me that he had simply kissed me without trying to finger me next to the night bus. Instant turn on.

Next, I've always found the grabbing your hand to put it there quite sexually aggressive anyway. I know lots of PPs are saying that she wouldn't have his consent to touch him so it's the same. I still think it's better for people to move their own hands but SLOWLY.

Kissing someone and suddenly there's this hand pawing at your breast like they're trying to milk a goat is annoying. Kissing someone whose hands are on your waist and then they very slowly move up your body and wait a moment before they get there to see what you do before touching is hot. At that moment, someone who wants you to carry on will deepen the kiss, arch their back, move their body closer to yours etc. It's really quite hard to misinterpret.

It's the same as any next step. Go slowly, hover nearby and see how they respond. By the time you're groping at someone's genitals they should be so obviously aroused and absolutely desperate to be touched that it is obvious through their body language and words.

Show him the consent is like a cup of tea video and that consent should be enthusiastic.

He shouldn't spend any energy arguing over whether is is assault unless he is arrested and then he needs a lawyer to do that for him.

What he needs to do is apologize for making her feel uncomfortable, thank her for letting him know, reassure her he will not do this to her or anyone else again without checking first. What she wants is to be validated in her experience and to not worry it will happen again, she's not looking to have him arrested or convicted

rapecrisis.org.uk/get-informed/types-of-sexual-violence/what-is-sexual-assault/

According to this, it is sexual assault

Sexual assault? Police? Therapy?
Wow, it's a different world than the one I grew up in.
It happened to me at the grand old age of 17. He was the same age. I was a little taken aback but thought nothing of it. I moved his hand away. No drama.
I cannot believe that teenage fumblings are now described as sexual assault.

What a bloody insult to those who have suffered sexual assault.

It's a wonder there'll be any sex happening at all soon the way it's heading...

They were kissing, he tried to take it further. She said no, he stopped. The end.

Gentle or not, HE put her hand on him, she didn't. She didn't consent to any form of intimate touching. Making another person touch him in a sexual manner without consent is sexual assault.

Rapecrisis.org.uk

Not ideal from him to be honest. Bit of a jump from kissing even if she had initiated the kiss. I'd advise your son in future to follow the girl's lead at all times and ask for consent always. He shouldn't have done that but I wouldn't call it sexual assault.

So if kissing, and a woman is in the mood, and she puts a man's hand on her breast or elsewhere, he's allowed.to claim sexual assault?

Ridiculous.

Breasts aren't sexual. If she put his hand in her crotch, yes it would be.

Given she instigated the kissing and the wider context, and assuming that the movement was not aggressive or forced, than I would take the view that he reasonably thought he had consent and so it wasn't assault.

Wow, it's a different world than the one I grew up in.

Jesus - that’s not a bad thing. The 60s, 70s, 80s even 90s were hardly a peak time for women’s sexual safety.

I grew up in that different world, too. Wish I hadn't. I was repeatedly abused, because it was 'normal' then.

Really good that this girl said no, and that the boy is now aware it was wrong.

Women’s breasts are secondary sexual characteristics. They are most definitely sexual.

This is the Harvey Weinstein defence, - oh what a huge fuss about nothing.

I'm really glad things have moved on.

Yes, and he did it moments into a first kiss. So inappropriate.

I'm surprised by those supporting the boy's side and not seeing how the girl must have felt.

@Louloulouenna, I think @Wimwims is the therapist this young man needs! Maybe her post above (23:17) will help him on his way.

@Wimwims It was pretty incredible to 20 year old me that he had simply kissed me without trying to finger me next to the night bus. Instant turn on.

So true, haha!

I’d be like ew if a guy did that because a) it’s too much from kissing to go to that, b) it’s in public so totally inappropriate and c) I’d assume he was going to be a selfish git as he was clearly only thinking about his dick rather than enjoying kissing her.

the public thing is probably the worst. How embarrassing and also not legal to be dry wanking a guy outside a busy nightclub (which is presumably what he wanted her to do?)

he was wrong and ew. It was a disrespectful move and I would assume he was an arsehole. good he stopped but basically he showed he saw her as a sex object, not anything more. Tell him he should only kiss girls he’a actually excited to spend time with on a personal level going forward - will help him avoid trouble.

I do think it’s great women are standing up for themselves. But it’s confusing as an older (not wildly older though) person because, as others have mentioned, we suffered so much casual abuse. I mean going to a club it was literally constant. Hands grabbing, comments, hands up skirts, tongues pushed in mouths by random blokes, aggressiveness. And it was just expected and accepted. And worse happened regularly. Even from bosses at work it was the same and I worked in a pretty ok environment. If any of the behaviour I was subjected to happened to a twenty year old now they’d be a sobbing wreck at the police station but we were expected to just roll our eyes and crack on with it. So glad things have changed.

but it does beg the question how do people go from kissing to anything further - implied consent etc. I mean does the woman (most vulnerable party) always have to initiate every step? How can a man go further without the ability to “try it on”? and if this woman had put her hand on OP’s nephew’s dick (strange sentence!) then would she be sexually assaulting him?? Or coercing him?

how does it all not become a stake mate where no one can move for fear?