Is this sexual assault?

[Louloulouenna]

Hi there, I could really do with some advice. My 18 year old nephew has been accused of sexual assault.

He was out clubbing with an 18 year old school friend. At the end of the night they were kissing and he took her hand and placed it on his clothed crotch. She said she felt uncomfortable so they stopped immediately.

She is now saying that by placing her hand (gently) on his crotch this is sexual assault. Just to be clear she agrees with his version of events. Would really appreciate some opinions as his parents are in complete meltdown.

@Abbylikeswine
It's my opinion
Would you like this boy to be prosecuted?
Lots of things are going to make this girl uncomfortable- part of growing up and learning ti go through life happy and safe.

There has to be a middle ground between perfect gentlemanly behaviour and criminal behaviour.

As I said above, an unwanted kiss can be considered sexual assault. When she initiated the kiss, had she misjudged, would you have wanted her prosecuted?

She clearly fancied him and initiated physical contact. He tried to take it further in a crass way. He is 18! She could have, well before her hand got anywhere near him, stopped things. It is agreed that no force was involved.

This extreme form of requiring verbal consent before every next step in a sexual encounter might be sexy for some, but would be a complete turn off for many men and women. Sex is often an unspoken dialogue and young people, of both sexes, sometimes get it wrong.

Are you a man?

He has never said that the kiss was unwanted has he.

she has said that touching his penis was unwanted.

Touching a penis without wanting to do it is very traumatising

You said he tried to take it further in a crass way.

I would say it's an unusual and nasty way.

I kissed a good few teenage boys when I was 18.

Not one of them took my hand and put it on their penis.

You just don't do that

@Abbylikeswine

Well, when I was (a lot) younger and snogging, more than one woman put her hand on my crotch!

Mostly it was very much wanted but, on the odd occasion it wasn’t, it never occurred to me that I was being assaulted. In your opinion, should it?

There’s at least one poster on this thread who was excusing a man who anally raped an OP last week, because how was he to know she didn’t want it?

Which is exactly why this OP’s nephew’s cavalier attitude to consent - just do it and apologise afterwards if she didn’t like it - needs nipped in the bud right now.

I completely agree with this.

Female.

Its strange that any time there is a thread about a man sexually assaulting a woman on mumsnet,

That a man always pops up, and says "but loads of women have done it to me - should they also be charged with sexual assault".

but to answer your scenario: Yes if someone touches your crotch and you don't want it, its sexual assault.

Consent is key. Consent is beautiful

I'm 40.

A good few men have done things to me without asking, and I've never ever enjoyed it when it happened.

I remember only one man who outright asked me for consent.

We were kissing. And before he did anything else he asked me "are you okay, are you enjoying it".

It was brilliant. It was actually the most intimate that I've ever felt with anyone. That he cared enough to ask

I think if he had put her hand down his pants on his actual penis that would warrant getting upset. But a hand on top of clothing. Bit of an overreaction. Remove your hand, walk away. I would feel more 'assaulted' if another person groped me when I didnt want them to, than this.

My comment was in reply to @Fleecedandzipped, as quoted below. I did not say that the boy was predatory, calculated and coercive.

I said that @Fleecedandzipped 's defence of the boy's behaviour was akin to Weinstein's defence.

It is remarkable how many women have leapt to the defence of this boy. I don't care that he's young and he's sorry. Hopefully it'll be a big wake up call.

As I've mentioned in another post, I experienced the same sexual assault of my hand guided to male crotch. This was by a 15 yo boy, who was actually predatory, calculated and coercive, not 'fumbling'. He went on to sexually abuse me further, including holding me down and fingering me.

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RogueFemale · Today 01:04
This is the Harvey Weinstein defence, - oh what a huge fuss about nothing.

I'm really glad things have moved on.

Fleecedandzipped · Yesterday 22:57
I have to admit that I'm rather astonished by this thread. When I was 18, that sort of thing was totally normal.

I'm absolutely flabbergasted that such a fuss is being made over such a small thing and I actually feel very sorry for the boy. Clearly he misread the situation and thought the girl was keener than she was. He interpreted her kissing him as meaning that she fancied him. An understandable assumption, surely? She told him "no", he realised his error and stopped. Surely that's the end of it?

Has the girl confirmed that his penis wasn't erect?

Is she experienced enough to know the difference?

I would say that this is sexual assault, unfortunately. Very obviously unintended, very clearly without malice, and I'm really sorry for all parties involved. Just because she consented to kissing, didn't mean she consented to touching genitalia, and he didn't give her the opportunity to consent. I think that this is a really clear example of why kids need consent training from an early age - this stuff still isn't taught in schools, and isn't really discussed in uni either, apart from a perfunctory 'consent' course everyone has to do at the start of uni, which is generally online. Sexual assault can most definitely be perpetrated by accident, as it was in this case. I wish your nephew good luck and healing. This sounds like a mistake that he'll never make again, and it sounds like you and the rest of his family are being supportive of him, which is really important.

I think this is also a really good example of why the justice system around this area needs to be reformed, perhaps into something more aligned with restorative justice. Clearly, criminalisation would do this situation no good. Your nephew has already learned his lesson: he isn't a danger to other women. He knows what he's done wrong, he's ashamed, he is upset that he hurt someone. In contexts like this, intention is actually important - he doesn't have the mind of a perpetrator.