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Gender critical in Ireland

1000 replies

Muppetryofthepenis · 11/06/2022 16:57

Just wondering if there are many others out there. Was reading a political pamphlet and it was going on about self ID and how important it is. I just don't agree and think it's so damaging to change the definition of what a woman is. And the definition of a man too, I guess. Sex based rights are under threat in Ireland. Fed up with all the nonsense. Wondering what other Irish mumsnetters think.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
38
SolasAnla · 19/08/2022 10:55

They and all the organisations who voted all are involved in the buy-in.
None of the women involved are stupid nor inexperienced in the areas they advocate for.

Go through the membership list; lots of organisations which would have to write policy on safe guarding.
If they are writing policy which covers single sex provision they have a real problem, as under Irish law anybody of the opposite sex can claim to have a GRC and the organisation have no legal right to ask for proof. These groups work at the coal face, where they are much more likely to encounter abusive people who learn how to minipulate the system to facilitate their abusive behaviours.

There is an underlying conflict of interest when they pretend that a male who needs male healtcare etc. is included under their brief while they have to pretend that a female who needs female healthcare etc. is not included. Yet as they pretend that the females are men, they have to recognise these females/women need special policy language to be included and that this leads to pretending that female services are not sex based or that de-sexing legislation is going to cause problems

TRA organisations by default are going to have aims which directly conflict with the aims of womens organisations, such as the provision of single sex services, or the promotion of womens interest as womens not "people whatever".
A prime example is the legislation for period products is for "people who bleed" etc to quality under the legislation a woman has to prove not that she is a girl/woman but a person that bleeds.

Read the debate, who (by sex)
uses what words [a] to define the people who need period products and [b] the people who will never have a biological need for the products.

Use their full "extended definition" to replace text when they is the single word

www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/seanad/2021-02-08/15/

For fun do the adjustment on the stats
People Population 100%
Female 50%
Male 50%
Eg
if 50% of females experienced X
25% of people experience X
75% of people of people do not experience X
So if people is used when they referred to only half the population you must half the % number.

Note that public toilets came up.

And spot where 2 different roles in sexual reproduction matter.

Farmageddon · 19/08/2022 11:02

3timeslucky · 19/08/2022 07:57

I look at it differently. Philips has been there a good while. But is one person. But all those women who at surface level we think are "fine, grand, ok etc" are on the same page as Philips. That really worries me. That Philips is self-serving and has an agenda that is nothing to do with women doesn't surprise me. That the others do also is much worse not just because they're supposed to be the NWCI but because these are women with experience on the coalface of women's issues.

I mean I agree with you, but at the same time I'm hesitant to automatically pin the responsibility on women all the time to push back. Like in sports situations, the initial reaction from many is for the women to 'just not play' or boycott, but why should they? why should they forfeit their place or maybe sponsorship deals to protest this? Then they are pegged as problematic and disrupters.

I agree that these women in NCWI should know better, especially given their experiences with vulnerable women - but on the other hand if they have a history of helping marginalised groups, they may have swallowed the most vulnerable ever nonsense, or feel under pressure to 'be kind' as part of their persona or how they see themselves.
We all know the difficulty of dealing with being branded phobic or unsupportive, especially in certain working environments. (Funnily enough, I worked for a charity years ago, just as admin staff, but it was a totally toxic environment).

I don't even know what I'm trying to say really, I suppose that maybe some of them aren't on the same page or don't support this decision, but don't feel comfortable saying it. Even the most outwardly confident, successful women can struggle with asserting their needs and concerns.

It's just frustrating that these women have been put in this situation in the first place. I think they are between a rock and a hard place, all while Mr. Loves Himself is having a great time basking in the validation.

3timeslucky · 19/08/2022 16:22

I hear what you're saying and maybe some of the women on the Board are holding their noses because they fundamentally think the NWCI is of value.

However, I think that they devalue it by allowing Philips be on the Board. I don't know the history to know who allowed Philips in or how that happened. Some of the women will have come in after the fact but knowing Philips is there. In that circumstance it could be difficult to raise a dissenting voice. It is hard to tell who might or might be full on TWAW but each one of them is complicit at some level. That's not to say more blame doesn't like with Philips and whoever placed Philips on the Board.

To me, the fact that they have history working with vulnerable women should make them more sensitive to the implications of TRA demands. Fighting for women's rights has never been about being nice and kind to everyone. It has always required courage and backbone and most of all, a centring of women.

Having said all that, I would love to hear each individual woman on that Board give an explanation of her viewpoint.

Farmageddon · 19/08/2022 19:02

You're right 3timeslucky, they are making a mockery of what the NCWI was intended to be. I guess 'complicit' is the right word, maybe they didn't create this situation, but they are enabling it by carrying on the farce.
I dunno, I'm just so disappointed in women who go along with this, and at the same time I keep trying to understand how they manage to square that circle.

Like, what is going through their minds as they sit across the table from this person at meetings that discusses violence against women or specific women's issues (often caused by men), and seriously think this person has anything constructive to offer, let alone that he has a right to be there, or is there for well intentioned reasons, and not for his own jollies!

Is it the 'archetype TW' as I heard talked about before, this idea that because a TW they might know personally is kind and lovely and just wants to pee that they believe all others must exactly the same. Surely they are not that naive...

I dunno, I'm just rambling now but it's all so frustrating. I have lost faith in so many institutions and organisations to uphold any sort of truth, they seem to be wilfully blind on this one issue! The only explanation I can come up with, is that it serves men to buy into this, and therefore must be adhered to.

Which is surely the opposite of what the NCWI stands for?! GRRRRRRR (sound of my head exploding!)

FionaMacCool · 20/08/2022 10:02

www.irishtimes.com/opinion/2022/08/20/fintan-otoole-no-one-was-forced-to-read-the-satanic-verses-or-watch-show-by-notoriously-offensive-comedian/
Excellent, excellent thoughtful article by Fintan O'Toole in the IT today:

"As citizens we dont just get to choose our rulers, we get to choose how, whether and when to experience the danger of emotional and intellectual discomfort."

He's writing about the cancellation of Jerry Sadowitz and about Salman Rushdie.
A pity he didn't include Glinner.

3timeslucky · 20/08/2022 13:13

Yep, the article is very good but I'd like to have seen him take it beyond the arts. What happened to Glinner happened outside of the arts (even though Glinner is from that world). It wasn't something he did or said or wrote in a book or a show that caused offence, it was his statements in the real world (or the real on-line world). Maybe Fintan will get brave and broaden the scope of his defence of free speech.

Abhannmor · 22/08/2022 08:51

Yes but the gender lobby have been digging through Linehans work as they did with JKRs trying to convict him of transphobia. There is a trans character in one episode of the IT Crowd , although I haven't seen that one.

It needs someone of Fintan's stature to speak out. Someone on the Left - however vaguely. I don't hold out much hope for Irish women in the Arts , Media or Academe. After all nearly 300 of them signed an open letter condemning Frankie Gaffney , a working class writer who had said Identity Politcs are divisive and useless.

Having said that , there are great women in this fight like Stella O Malley , Helen Joyce and Laoise de Brún. But they don't have O Toole's profile.

3timeslucky · 22/08/2022 12:16

I don't disagree at all. The more the likes of Fintan weigh in the better.

FWIW I've seen that episode of the IT Crowd and while I think Linehan says he wouldn't write it like that again it is just one scene in a comedy. In the grand scale of TRA issues with Linehan it is small fry. Not sure they'd all agree with me of course!

Farmageddon · 22/08/2022 12:45

3timeslucky · 20/08/2022 13:13

Yep, the article is very good but I'd like to have seen him take it beyond the arts. What happened to Glinner happened outside of the arts (even though Glinner is from that world). It wasn't something he did or said or wrote in a book or a show that caused offence, it was his statements in the real world (or the real on-line world). Maybe Fintan will get brave and broaden the scope of his defence of free speech.

Yes, while I agree with his stance (even though I can't read the article, as it's behind a paywall) I can't help thinking he's playing it safe by not venturing into gender ideology territory. It is well established at this stage that 'things which cannot be said' are mainly around one issue - genderwoo.
He has the luxury of dipping his toe into this arena and making a decent point, but he avoid the scrutiny and backlash of the TRAs.

Abhannmor · 23/08/2022 13:02

I see #DefundTheNCWI was trending on Twitter. Well they've only themselves to blame if it comes to pass. They won't defend women and girls. They call for feminists to lose representation and access to media. And now they attack gays and lesbians. What is their purpose then - are they now purely a Trans rights lobby ?

The great socialist Tony Benn once said that whenever he met someone in a leadership position he asked them three questions :

  1. What sort of power do you have?
  1. Where does your power come from?
  1. How can you be got rid of ?

Time we asked this of our corrupt, unelected overlords

Farmageddon · 02/09/2022 18:00

I haven't seen any other discussion of this on here or FWR, but I'm interested to see how this story about the teacher suspended for refusing to use preferred pronouns plays out. The headlines mentions him being arrested, but I think that's because he kept going into the school even though he isn't supposed to.

Does anybody know what they suspended him for? Was it breach of ethics or discrimination or something else? What grounds would the school have?

www.msn.com/en-ie/news/world/high-court-orders-arrest-of-suspended-teacher-enoch-burke-who-allegedly-breached-injunction/ar-AA11ohy6?cvid=646d1c24a7e24cd9a13841eb3e0af706

Genesis1v27 · 02/09/2022 18:19

There's some discussion here:

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4622988-teacher-suspended-in-ireland-for-refusing-to-use-prefered-pronoun-and-name

Alison O'Connor writing in The Examiner today:

https://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/columnists/arid-40952696.html[https://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/columnists/arid-40952696.html We can be trans-inclusive without undermining women’s rights]]

Farmageddon · 02/09/2022 18:29

Ooops, I must have missed the thread in FWR - thanks will have a look.

Smileeriley · 09/10/2022 19:03

Please stop saying Irish people, it's just people.

I agree with you op, it's absolute nonsense.

I know a girl who now identifies as a not and has absolutely ruined herself. I can't help but wonder why her parents have let it go so far.

My own daughter wanted me to call her a boy's name, I absolutely refused.

It w I ms to me that teenagers that are unsure of where they fit in pick a letter from LQBQTKLVTYCA and stand underneath it.

Absolute bonkers.

3timeslucky · 10/10/2022 10:10

Please remember the consultation on the new RSE curriculum and consider making a submission. I've given the ncca link below. Have a look at 1.4 here:

Students should be able to:
1.1 explore the physical, social and emotional changes that happen during adolescence
1.2 reflect on their personal strengths and values and how they bring these into relationships
1.3 explore how life experiences can impact on self-esteem and identify ways to nurture a positive sense of self-worth
1.4 appreciate that sexual orientation, gender identity and gender expression are core parts of human identity and that each is experienced along a spectrum
1.5 reflect on gender equity and how gender stereotypes impact on expectations, behaviour and relationships
1.6 discuss experiences/situations of bias, inequality or exclusion based on race/ethnicity, gender and sexual orientation and devise ways to create more inclusive environments
1.7 communicate in a respectful and effective manner, including demonstrating the capacity to understand the perspectives of, and empathize with others
1.8 demonstrate self-management skills, including setting personal goals, delaying gratification, and self-regulation of thoughts, emotions and impulses.
ncca.ie/en/junior-cycle/curriculum-developments/social-personal-and-health-education-relationships-and-sexuality-education/

Annasgirl · 10/10/2022 10:28

I just completed that survey - the problem
is the survey does not include the gender ideology or trans issues. Do you know where we can raise those issues ?

I found out last week that my 10 year old was taught weekly about trans identity last year - 3rd class - without any parental permission- and none of the children discussed it with us at home, it only came to light when one boy mentioned it in passing to his mum. When I told the other parents that I was uncomfortable with this , they accused me of being homophobic 🙄🙄🙄 these are drs and lawyers and IT professionals and they are completely captured.

3timeslucky · 10/10/2022 10:31

There's an email option:

ncca.ie/en/junior-cycle/curricu ... education/

The consultation will remain open until October 18th 2022

SPHE teacher feedback survey

SPHE student feedback survey

Written submission template for other interested groups or individuals All written submissions can be sent to: [email protected]

3timeslucky · 10/10/2022 10:33

Sorry that top link hasn't copied across properly

3timeslucky · 10/10/2022 10:37

You'll see the email address given here (as cut and pasted):
ncca.ie/en/junior-cycle/curriculum-developments/social-personal-and-health-education-relationships-and-sexuality-education/

Believerinbiology · 11/10/2022 21:50

Annasgirl I think they've deliberately tried to hide it by using terms in the survey which don't correspond to the learning outcomes 3times listed. They've put down "sexual identity" on the survey, a term I haven't come across before and which I'd say is trying to hide gender ideology by lumping it in with sexual orientation.

Believerinbiology · 13/10/2022 13:28

Just completed the survey. It's easy enough do if frustrating due to how broad the questions are and the layout (on phone the text box for comments scrolls as you type so you can't see what you've written, and my text was long!). Felt the questions were fairly meaningless so you need to have a copy of the learning outcomes etc beside you and have a look through resources in the toolkit beforehand. Lots of links in the toolkits no longer work so you can't see what the info is or was or were created by organisations that no longer exist! Can't believe how gender identity taught as fact and infiltrates many areas. I used the text boxes lots, just hope it was somewhat coherent as I couldn't see what I was typing.
Now I have to go write to somebody about primary curriculum as happened to click on the updated busy bodies book and am angry again...checked one I had in the house from a few years ago to confirm differences and it seems the gender ideology paint brush has been out...several pages added on gender identity (which it boldly states everybody has), removal of the terms boys/girls...

elgreco · 18/10/2022 22:35

I have filled it in. They definitely are fudging the language with "sexual identity". I mentioned that in my comments.
I will talk to the school, I think. Some places have bought into this nonsense more than others. Bizarrely, the schools you would have chosen least likely to indoctrinate your children (in the old religion)10 years ago, are now the most likely to indoctrinate them in the new one.

Gubu · 18/10/2022 23:44

Thanks for the reminder, I've just filled it in.

4th class dc came home with the Busy bodies book today. Its definitely not the same as we got for the now 6th classer. Dh won't want me to talk to the school but I feel I need to. Just need to work out how, I don't think the principal will take a discussion well...we're in one of the non religious schools so be kind is filling the void 🙄

Believerinbiology · 19/10/2022 10:04

Trying to find out from DC what's being taught is like getting blood from a stone...I'm hoping youngest has missed the "updated" book as in sixth class now.
We are looking at secondary schools and signs of gender ideology in most of them (both catholic and multi/non-denominational but difficult to know to what degree...e.g. difference between a male appearing on a significant women in history notice board (as one child chose to write about them) or them being taught this by teachers.
Its hard to believe that children are being told that normal feelings of uncertainty/dislike/ discomfort with their growing body's in adolescence may mean they are trans. The evershifting sands of the language used in this ideology should alert people to the fact that it lacks a factual basis yet adults are keen to sell it to children as the truth. Ffs that first statement... Everybody has a gender identity. Eh no they don't.
www.sexualwellbeing.ie/for-parents/busy-bodies-english-language.pdf

3timeslucky · 19/10/2022 14:59

I've 36 school years clocked up so far and I have never before worried about what teachers or outside bodies invited into the school might be telling my children. I've always been confident that I could supplement where there were gaps (as there were in the area of RSE when my eldest started).

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