Gender critical in Ireland

[Muppetryofthepenis]

Just wondering if there are many others out there. Was reading a political pamphlet and it was going on about self ID and how important it is. I just don't agree and think it's so damaging to change the definition of what a woman is. And the definition of a man too, I guess. Sex based rights are under threat in Ireland. Fed up with all the nonsense. Wondering what other Irish mumsnetters think.

I didn't catch that link before the survey closed. My DH refuses to talk to me similar to a PP DH above, he likes to think he's a left wing progressive type and he can't understand either how JKR or GL have put their heads above the parapet. Likes to call me a terf as a joke. Conflates liberal with left wing anyway but I suppose millions do that. They must get awfully confused when right wing parties bring in legislation for liberal causes.

My DS did a sex ed workshop thing in secondary school last year and I didn't ask him more than he volunteered so I dunno if it covered gender woo. But he doesn't think he has a gender and believes gender is a social construct. He accepts he is male as he has a male body. It's the exclusionary aspect of terfdom he was concerned about I think though he sees the point with sports he didn't see why a trans woman shouldn't be the women's officer of a political party or whatever... i hope he does now.

Hi ladies just popping up to wave from darkest Roscommon.
It feels a million miles and 30 years away from Dublin here.
But in some ways the dark shadow of the church and awful misogynist society means I'm safe from encountering men in dresses in the ladies. But all the swimming pools are unisex with cubicles anyway which is a nightmare.

I have been watching this thread but rarely post here. I find it all very depressing and I feel the new hate speech laws have a very chilling effect.
gript.ie/gerard-casey-this-is-a-law-designed-to-make-you-afraid/

I have always voted FG, but I am reminded of their "blueshirt" origins with this Bill and I feel we are heading towards an Orwellian society.
I feel really dispirited at the lack of opposition to it both in the Dail and in the media. I know some journalists have spoken out, but it is noticeable that they are generally of an older generation. Younger people, with no real memory of the fall of the Iron Curtain, seem to generally support this. They seem to have no ability to understand or accept that not everyone agrees on everything and that that is OK.
SF were themselves silenced for so long on the airways but haven't been very vocal on this. One would expect them to be very against censorship but they seem to have given their tacit support to this.
As mentioned in the article linked above I feel these laws are designed to shut down debate on Gender Ideology and its impact on women, and that really is very chilling indeed. I think most women with concerns genuinely have a live and let live attitude but there are elements of gender ideology that impact women negatively, and removing the ability to speak about this is simply oppression.
Ireland has always been a misogynistic country, and nothing has really changed.

I'll admit I haven't examined many bills but I can never get over the fact that documents which you would think would have to be precise and show absolute legal clarity are full of word salad and make no sense when you try to decipher. It's like they're deliberately designed so that they can be interpreted in whatever way suits at a given time. I remember reading and rereading the GRA 2015 several years ago and couldn't get over the conflation of sex and gender within it. This bill is no better and yes definitely a stick to beat women with (or rather threaten them into silence).
The media and political support of the suppression of free speech is scary. The amount of politicians commenting and hyperbole about the Kerry priests homily left me thinking he must have said something truely horrendous bit when I found the videos it turned out he was just spouting Catholic doctrine. Since when did it become a political matter that a religious figure was stating their beliefs in their church? I think that priest is an areshole based on his past treatment of a victim of sexual assault and his support of her attacker, but I don't think he should be stopped from voicing his beliefs particularly within the church. I don't believe in the churches teachings therefore I stopped going when I was old enough to choose. Many people particularly in Ireland, seem to want to keep the bits they like of religion while dictating that the church hides it's less savory teachings.
I sadly agree entirely with your last sentence, misogyny is alive and well here!

Believerinbiology
It's like they're deliberately designed so that they can be interpreted in whatever way suits at a given time. I remember reading and rereading the GRA 2015 several years ago and couldn't get over the conflation of sex and gender within it.

I totally agree, I remember reading through it and being so frustrated with the lack of clarity, and the obvious conflation of sex and gender which didn't make sense. Sex is scientific and based in material reality, gender is not - how can you just use them interchangeably in a legal document and expect it to make sense. So you legally change your gender and that somehow legally makes you of the opposite sex? And yet for other laws the use of the word sex surely actually means something distinct?
How can they get away with that in drafting laws for an entire country. Did nobody stop and think 'this is just nonsense?'.

I have no faith in this government anymore to think rationally about this (or other things to be honest), they have shown such a lack of critical thinking and a blind allegiance to an ideology that is shown to be harmful.

Also, the hate crimes bill is a worrying thing. But unfortunately, if you bring up the subject, people automatically assume you are a racist and homophobe and hate other people and don't want to give them protection. The issue is what is considered hateful has been expanded to biological reality and not agreeing with someones self delusion. And for that you could potentially be committing a hate crime? Ridiculous.

From the above article:

After a brief review of the relative ineffectiveness of the Prohibition of Incitement to Hatred Act 1989, the leader writer noted: “the publication on Friday, following Cabinet approval, of the Incitement to Violence or Hatred and Hate Offences Bill (2022) is a welcome attempt both to make prosecution easier and to prohibit and penalise transphobic speech.”

The Bill actually lists ten so-called ‘protected’ characteristics: race, colour, nationality, religion, national or ethnic origin, descent, gender, sex characteristics, sexual orientation, and disability (as the leader writer later notes), so one might wonder why, of these ten characteristics, the prohibition and penalisation of transphobic speech is singled out for special mention.

So of the protected characteristics, gender identity isn't actually one of them but this is already being seen as a way to shut down anything deemed 'transphobic', like calling a man in a dress a man.

It's a disgrace.
I do feel like all this passes because of the massive disenfranchisement. Over here.
Plus I think corruption is so rife in Roscommon that it doesn't matter what the law says. It's who you are related to that determines if you are prosecuted or not.

Hi Babasghost, is there much talk of gender ideology in your local area? Are people aware of what's going on at all? Maybe the recent photos of the middle aged man playing in a local girls GAA match would wake people up a bit.

I live in Dublin, and have talked to quite a few people about this, but I get the sense that there are many people who just aren't aware that this is even the law and see it as a UK problem (I suppose the Denton's document showed why they want to keep things under wraps).

The problem is our media outlets are playing the game on this, and ignoring the blatant issues, while pushing fluffy feel good pro trans stories, so there isn't much of a public discussion going on.

I know there is the Countess, which is an information/advocacy group in Ireland which I donate to - but so far I don't see much of what they are actually doing to get the word out. It would be great if there was an information campaign to let people know what the actual law is, and how that affects women.

www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/lgbtq-campaigners-gather-outside-kerry-church-to-condemn-hateful-speech-by-priest-42123231.html

"While she “wasn’t surprised” by Fr Sheehy’s views, Sabrina said she wanted to see the media “doing a better job” by “not giving air space to transphobic and queerphobic rhetoric”.

She added that such statements were “sensationalist” and “played with hate”.

“It’s cheap and tacky and I think the media could do a lot better at countering such hatred,” she said.
The campaigners told the Irish Independent they wanted to see legislation tightened up so that hate speech was not allowed on any platform in Ireland.

They also called for Pride to be provided a prominent platform via the media in the future"

I find that article very disturbing. Sabrina seems to ignore the fact that the media was overwhelmingly critical of the priests comments.
I don't think Fr. Sheehy will win any awards for compassion, but as mentioned by pp he was spouting Catholic doctrine. The outrage seems a little over the top - 80 year old priest is homophobic, it's hardly a shock. He wasn't inciting violence, he was simply stating his religious beliefs. I don't agree with him, but I believe he has the right to believe in his religion.
Eilis O'Hanlon had an opinion piece in yesterday's paper. She pointed out that the same priest has given similar sermons on other topics, that women who have abortions will burn in hell, couples who have sex outside of marriage will burn in hell etc etc. The difference on those occasions was that most people just did an eye roll and got on with their lives.
I suppose I am just very uncomfortable that there is such an inability to accept that nobody will go through life without being offended and the inability to deal with this is a serious problem.

Ah "pick and mix" religion at it's finest. "I want to have your churches and any nice ceremonies but don't you dare preach your religion to me while I'm there (or when I'm not there but might hear about it)". Where have I heard they rhetoric before?

I feel I am not articulating my discomfort very well in my previous post.
I feel that, in her own way, Sabrina is as extreme in her views, as Fr Sheehy is in his. That is my real concern. While Ireland has moved away from the Catholic Church, we seem to have moved to another extreme that is equally as intolerant.
What I am trying to say is that, for example, I might find it very offensive if a Muslim cleric stated that women who do not cover up in a burqa are sinners.
Obviously, I would disagree and find it offensive to women.
But I understand that this is part of that religion, Women in the Western world have the right not to attend his mosque,and as long as they are not being forced, as is happening in Iran, then they have the right to believe or not believe this.
I do not think this would make national headlines, be considered hate speech, or that the Muslim cleric would be no platformed by his own Church.
In Iran, they have the Morality police. I feel that Ireland has similar, just in a different guise.
People will always have different beliefs, but we cannot impose those beliefs on others. Otherwise we are going backwards.

Also the whole homily was about 5 minutes, he spent a lot of that talking about sin in general, a fair bit on his story about the parishioners daughter being offered condoms by the HSE, mentioned the madness of transgenderism or something to that effect in passing and didn't return to it. Can't remember what he said about same sex couples but it was no worse than what most Irish Catholic women have sat through. I remember at one point as a young teen counting the various things I was going to hell for and looking at all the adults around me wondering why they were voluntarily listening to it. If you don't like what a church teaches don't go, the bishop was vary careful in his wording of his criticism also...avoided saying it went against Catholic teaching but said something about it not being in line with Christian thought.

I agree completely, there are aspects of many religions I dislike and may say I disagree with and why but people of those religions equally have the right to say them. Note this is not just related to religion. I feel we'll see more and more of this judging by the way students are coddled and allowed to avoid any dissenting opinions even in 3rd level education. It seems we are losing the ability to debate and critique and perhaps learn from what we disagree with and instead our children are being taught to stamp their feet and shout "I don't have to listen to you". Definitely a 'morality police' in another guise but it is astonishing that the people involved do not hold a mirror up to themselves and their actions and recognised this. It's also worrying the rapidity at which the silencing of dissent is gaining traction while the same people involved rightly condemn morality police in Iran and support women to raise their voices there.

I agree completely, especially the part about this person being just as extreme. However they will never see it, as they are on the 'right side' (i.e. the left), and place themselves as morally righteous arbiters of what is acceptable.
There is no agree to disagree, there is only no platforming, cancelling, shouting bigot and terf etc. etc.

It really is laughable how similar this all is to the heavy handed tactics the church used to use, even though many young people would spit at the idea that they are anything like religious fanatics. The extreme left are now the authoritarians.
Unfortunately, if you speak out about this, you are assumed to be a right wing lunatic.

And don't get me wrong, I don't agree with what that priest said, but it doesn't mean he doesn't have the right to speak. As has been pointed out, this is simply his religious doctrine. We've gone from ridiculous blasphemy laws a few years ago, to the other end of the spectrum really.

And what bothers me more is that many of the people spouting transphobic this and that, are positioning themselves as victims, all while succeeding in laws and policies and language being changed en masse in their favour. That's quite powerful.
And yet they still get to be the underdog claiming vulnerability when the government, mainstream media etc. are fawning over them.

Hmm. The Fr Sheehy kerfuffle is interesting. About 80% of ppl are Catholics - even if they are ' a la carte Catholics'. Then we have Protestants and non Christian religions , they have rights too surely?

Who is going to tell the lads at Clonskeagh Mosque that Drag Queen Story Hour is coming so just suck it up .

The whole Hate Crime thing is wide open to abuse and vexatious litigation. Not everyone whi falls foul of it will be a crackpot fundamentalist either. That's when the fun begins. The first case under the UK Race Relations Act was brought against someone who advertised for a Scottish chef iirc. Although mostly it hasn't been abused. Then again they weren't dealing with the likes of TENI.

Abhannmor
The whole Hate Crime thing is wide open to abuse and vexatious litigation. Not everyone whi falls foul of it will be a crackpot fundamentalist either. That's when the fun begins.

I agree, it's probably going to have to be tested in court a few times before the masses wake up to what a shitshow it is. But that's frustrating in itself, the fact that it should have to be corrected or brought in line with common sense, and the people who wrote it (who should know better) didn't think broadly about it.

And also, that it may well be used as a threat to people, like we are seeing in the UK - threatening women with legal cases for stating biological fact, police turning up to their houses and giving them warnings etc. Some TRAs will have a field day wielding power like this. And the cost of defending a case will be massive.

It reminds me of the law that was brought in a few years ago, not allowing underage murder victims to be named in the media. They had to shelve it only about 2 months later when family members of murder victims complained they could not talk about or name their loved ones. It just showed a total lack of thinking by the drafters of the law, who are supposed to be experts in this.

Yes @Farmageddon we are cast as reactionary right wingers. Quite ironic really, considering many of us are socialists. I was on gay rights and anti racists protests in the 70s and 80s .If anything I'm even more left wing today.

Have voted PBP but find myself a bit disenfranchised now. I've come to see Identity Politics as a poison infecting the left. An empty shiny bauble to compensate for our failure on more important issues like Homelessness or the health service. You' ll never very able to leave your parents house , despite having a degree ? Never mind. Have a pronoun. They're free.

Unfortunately I think it's going to run a lot longer than the murder victims legislation. It absolutely will be used to silence dissent and nobody even needs to directly threaten it's use in this manner. Anybody reliant on their own income or who cannot afford to fight a legal case will think carefully before saying anything. Can't believe blasphemy law was only revoked in 2020, out with the old religion and in with the new.

It's like the joke about the Poles getting shot of communism and inviting the Pope over - the only revolution where you don't have to rise from your knees!

I'm no lawyer but might it be argued that such a draconian and badly worded bill is unconstitutional?

And yet they still get to be the underdog claiming vulnerability when the government, mainstream media etc. are fawning over them.

• *That is another thing that struck me in that article. Why exactly were they there? The priest had been condemned by his Bishop, no platformed by the Church, and received widespread criticism by the media. What more did they want? From Sabrina's comments they appear to want Stepford citizens. No critical thought, no dissent, no debate. Sadly, our government seems to agree.

True. Half the congregation walked out for heaven's sake. It's interesting what the media does and doesn't report as well. As OP have remarked ; not much coverage of the Countess here or other GC voices like Iseult White.

There's a FB page , Gender Critical Irish Socialists. Glinners YouTube the Mess We're In sometimes has Irish ppl on . That's about it. RTE and the Irish Times , in particular , have been completely irresponsible and dishonest on this issue.

Wouldn't it be nice if its incoherence was enough to have it questioned. I reckon a group of TYs could draft better. It really is hard to believe that qualified lawyers produced that bill (or the GRA). You'd think Ivana might take a few minutes to run her incredibly qualified eye over it. But I guess that might be awkward for her.

twitter.com/RoisinMichaux/status/1591436489551921152?t=_v6HjtQrdGaxKjVyPfGo7w&s=19
I hope Irish politicians are taking note.

Couldn't make this . Hope there will be something on YouTube! Sounds brilliant