Why is it not considered necessary to vaccinate now?

[Movinghouseatlast]

Possibly a stupid question.

I just read on another thread about how the vaccine helped people to catch it in a more ' manageable way'. But presumably the vaccines aren't still working , so what has changed?

I am 3 weeks into a horrendous bout of Covid. I really wish I could at at least have paid for a booster. There is no way I could have gone in to work, I have managed an hour or two some days. So surely the economy is going to be impacted if we all end up getting this ill a couple of times a year?

"I don’t know anyone with a vaccine side effect other than a sore arm (let alone needing hospital care) "

I know someone who had a pulmonary embolism and the father of a colleague also had something very serious. In both cases, doctors told them it was probably the vaccine but it couldn't be proven.

Many, actually probably most, people I know had aches and pains after the vaccines and many women had changes to their periods. I explained above that my sore arm last many, many months and meant I couldn't bend it behind my back. This is compared to actual Covid that I got over pretty quickly.

@Gwenhwyfar

Your anecdotal evidence is not as reliable as consensus scientific opinion. If you are vaccine sceptical then it’s very likely that your views, social media circles etc are prone to this bias.

From my anecdotal evidence : not one person, work colleagues, friends of friends etc has had a bad reaction from the vaccine - other than a sore arm for a day or so. I know a few people who have died/been hospitalised or had health complications from Covid.
But my anecdotal evidence isn’t reliable either.
The safest evidence is global consensus opinion from the largest amount of peer reviewed data/studies available.

This evidence states - in every country across the globe (including Sweden with one of the highest vaccination rates in Europe) - that the vaccine is safe and effective.

I am in the same position as gwen. I also have a number in my (wide) circle who have had odd issues with their health. I am talking high heart rate spikes overnight, allergies to “cold”, and all sorts of odd things. In young and healthy people. In none of these has it been recorded as a side effect which I also find remarkable. I say nothing, by the way, I just seem sympathetic to their health woe wondering why the heck it’s not been reported.

Oh and that is before the strokes and four sudden deaths in (very wide) circle. It’s not fair to discuss them but I’m at the stage of finding it frightening. Again, non attributed.

@BeethovenNinth

But - based on your posting history - you are are vaccine sceptical and have have a strong bias.
Global scientific consensus opinion aims to eliminate that bias. It’s the largest collation of expert, peer reviewed, scientific data. It’s the safest opinion.

Explain to me why a biased opinion or discredited fringe science that doesn’t have peer backing is safer - and less likely to cause harm.
Explain to me why Sweden has the highest vaccination rates in Europe and are not seeing huge repercussions because of that.

@BeethovenNinth

I say nothing, by the way, I just seem sympathetic to their health woe wondering why the heck it’s not been reported.

Is this your way of attempting to say you're impartial? You are aware that your posting history is available to anyone?

Yes. In the arm, either one is fine

Because we've accepted filthy, germ ridden air as part of the normal background winter risk.

Masks do work but probably aren't an effective strategy when so many people would be too ill to wear one. We should be installing better ventilation and either filtering or UV treating the air in hospitals to reduce infection risk. But given most hospitals are struggling to keep the heating on and the ceilings up, this is not going to happen.

No payment if you don't fit the eligibility criteria.

"This evidence states - in every country across the globe (including Sweden with one of the highest vaccination rates in Europe) - that the vaccine is safe and effective."

That was not the evidence we would need. I asked for the risk of bad side effects (by which I don't necessarily mean being hospitalised) compared to risk of serious Covid (by age group). As the side effects are not always recorded, this information isn't really available, but we could look at the risk of being hospitalised for Covid by age group and we do know that the risk is much higher the older you are so that if you are under 65 and we are not in a crisis situation, it might make more sense not to have the new vaccines. In any case, the authorities seem to agree with me and not OP because we are not currently being told to get our 4th and 5th vaccines.

By the way, I am not "vaccine sceptical" at all. I am now a bit sceptical about this vaccine in particular.

we do know that the risk is much higher the older you are so that if you are under 65 and we are not in a crisis situation, it might make more sense not to have the new vaccines. In any case, the authorities seem to agree with me and not OP because we are not currently being told to get our 4th and 5th vaccines.

By the way, I am not "vaccine sceptical" at all. I am now a bit sceptical about this vaccine in particular.

This is conflating a load of different arguments and timepoints together @Gwenhwyfar

The fact that younger groups are not offered the vaccine now does not mean it was a mistake to offer vaccination to the these groups in 2021 - and we have robust, replicated evidence from numerous independent sources that demonstrates it was beneficial.

The roll out of a vaccine to the general population comes at a cost - (in terms of logistics, resources, potential negative effects) - right now the benefits do not outweight these costs, on a population level. This does not mean that the individual doesn't benefit, similar to other vaccines, which is why a lot of people would like to pay for it privately.

The risks of COVID are also lowered because we are no longer in a situation where the entire world is immune naive to SARS-COV-2. Virtually everyone has had at least one infection, along being offered a primary vaccine course + boosters, meaning there is a level of immunity for the individual and the population. Completely different scenario to 2020, which is also feeds into the health economics of who should be offered what vaccine.

"The fact that younger groups are not offered the vaccine now does not mean it was a mistake to offer vaccination to the these groups in 2021 - and we have robust, replicated evidence from numerous independent sources that demonstrates it was beneficial."

I never said it was.

I took my first 3 vaccines when we were in a crisis situation.

What are you arguing with me for?

"The risks of COVID are also lowered because we are no longer in a situation where the entire world is immune naive to SARS-COV-2. Virtually everyone has had at least one infection, along being offered a primary vaccine course + boosters, meaning there is a level of immunity for the individual and the population. Completely different scenario to 2020, which is also feeds into the health economics of who should be offered what vaccine."

Exactly. Again, you're agreeing with me.

Tad aggressive no? I was replying to these points, not anyone's personal decision on whether to be vaccinated or not

In any case, the authorities seem to agree with me and not OP because we are not currently being told to get our 4th and 5th vaccines.

I am now a bit sceptical about this vaccine in particular.

I was simply pointing out the fact that the vaccine is no longer offered to certain groups is not evidence that it is not safe or more harmful than first thought.

"I was simply pointing out the fact that the vaccine is no longer offered to certain groups is not evidence that it is not safe or more harmful than first thought."

Which I never claimed. And your reply definitely seemed aimed at me.

Since the Covid vaccines allegedly protect against severe sickness, hospitalisation and death, why aren’t we hearing about the unvaccinated who are severely sick, hospitalised or dead? 🙄

A higher proportion of unvaccinated died of Covid and were hospitalised.

That’s not true. According to the English governments own data the vaccinated were hospitalised and died at higher rate. It was inconvenient to say the least so they stopped publishing the figures.

On a proportional basis more unvaccinated died but on a number basis more vaccinated died as the majority are vaccinated - the chart on my earlier message showed this.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-to-compare-covid-deaths-for-vaccinated-and-unvaccinated-people/

@Nousernamesleftatall

This was a global pandemic, with every country around the world advising its citizens to get vaccinated. The global consensus of opinion is that the vaccine is safe and effective : with health guidelines in every country around the world stating this.
Even if you think something about the UK data was ‘iffy’ (and I’m sure that’s not the case as some of our greatest medical brains globally would have spotted this), there would be one comparable country - somewhere - saying ‘oh hang on’….

You are looking at it as an individual but vaccine programmes are operated on the basis of the impact which a disease may have across broader society.

The vaccine existed to prevent (a) serious illness which basically means hospitalisation and has an impact on the NHS; or (b) such a huge number of people being incapacitated that it would stop society functioning.

I’m sorry that you are proper poorly but you aren’t seriously ill by this standard, nor are many people affected by it these days.

@Nousernamesleftatall

That’s not true. According to the English governments own data the vaccinated were hospitalised and died at higher rate. It was inconvenient to say the least so they stopped publishing the figures.

Proportionally, most people in England were vaccinated. So, of course, vaccinated people were hospitalised and died at a higher rate than unvaccinated - because they outnumber them by such a degree. This is basic mathematics and not "inconvenient so they stopped publishing the figures".

I am aware of that but more vaccinated were hospitalised and died per 1000 when adjusted for proportion vaccinated. They were overrepresented when compared to the unvaccinated.

@Nousernamesleftatall

As said on all these threads, to all these people who claim the same things and ignore replies....

The people who have leaned into the anti-science/anti-vax industry make far more from doing this than working as a regular scientist or doctor, they are are able to freely disseminate all their crap, whilst making a profit, propped up by a cult like following on something that has become highly politicised.

The data regarding vaccine safety and effectiveness is not just from one source - there must be hundreds of research papers now, by independent countries and groups that all show the same thing.

You are simply blindly repeating claims from people who are making from a profit, whilst not thinking for yourself, at this point.