Is it ok to ask about the ramping up of vaccine side effects stories?

[SparklingJam]

I’m generally pro vaccines, but I’m starting to question the effects of the covid jab, and wonder if it’s possible to have a discussion about it. Apologies if this has been done to death, or isn’t an accepted topic.

I’ve been seeing more information about deaths of young men, how the vaccine isn’t very effective against covid, and hearing all about dreadful side effects, to the point where some people won’t have the jab because they “know” they’ll die.

I can fully accept that there are side effects, but the talk of increased deaths (apparently 1300 excess deaths per week, coupled with videos of supposed undertakers saying they are 50-100% busier now) is making me question things and worry.

Having said that, in my extended circle of friends, family and colleagues, I know many people who are mostly vaccinated, and apart from a day or 5 of feeling fluey they all have no side effects and haven’t died.
At the same time through the same extended group, I know a couple who have died of covid and several who still have long covid which has disabled them to varying degrees.

It would be logical to think that the excess deaths are a catch up to lock down and lack of hospital treatment, plus the current issues many have with seeing a gp or calling an ambulance, but I am assured by certain people that the excess deaths are solely due to the vaccine.

The Hart group have been totally discredited. And so has the JCVI member who was found to have links to them.

so it’s very difficult right now to know who is credible or not.

It's really not that difficult op. Just don't take your research from Tiktok videos, but if you insist on doing that, check up who they really are. Do not rely on websites set up by these grifters either. Just because they are trained doctors does not mean they aren't willing to make money and establish themselves as medical celebrities through dubious claims.

That’s Aseem Malhotra. He has a long history of spouting pseudoscientific bollocks even before covid. You can safely ignore that.

Who is discrediting the Hart Group?
I've just been on their website and there are some highly professional and educated experts.
Why are we not allowed to hear other view points? This really confuses me.
We all know things change and evolve as people learn more and adapt. There's so much we know now about the whole pandemic that we didn't know before and the virus has changed too.
We've learned a lot about so many things from who is vulnerable to human psychology and behaviour.
We can't be stuck with the same rigid acceptable opinions when things are so different now.

But as I said earlier, I’ve been told by a family member (cardiologist) who works with AM, and has told me that he is largely respected in his field of work.

How is a lay person to know if he is credible when he is considered a credible source amongst cardiologists but not in wiki.

I'm incredibly pro vaccine in general but for reasons unrelated to the vaccine itself I never had it. I've had covid twice and it didn't affect me so far as I can tell, other than cold like symptoms. My boyfriend has had 4 jabs and was fluey with each, now he's just had covid and has been bed bound for 3 weeks. Perhaps the vaccine isn't the right option for everyone, but it's hard to know why.

“Why are we not allowed to hear other view points? This really confuses me.”

This confuses me too.

The whole discussion is so toxic - and the insults getting thrown are so ridiculous that I don't even dare go to the GP about the side effects I've had for the last year or so now (I was jabbed in the first wave rollout of healthcare staff).

I have flares of neurological (trust me - I've tried all the creams and ointments going) itching and burning on my hands and feet most day to the point I've shredded my skin to blistering trying desperately to get some relief on it - plus really really deep joint pain (that sod of a pain sort where there's no relief from rubbing it or changing position) in the same limbs when it flares up. I'm realistic that there's fuck all can be done to sort it out, and I've just got to deal with it and someone somewhere gets the bad-luck end of the draw with anything carrying a risk, and that nothing is risk-free... but I just wish that there wasn't this stigma if you ARE having issues - it feels like admitting it at the moment is akin to going into a reception class in late November and telling them the truth about Santa. For whatever reason, out of the numerous jabs my body's had thrown at it over the years - this one really pissed off my immune system and it's still throwing a tantrum.

I've decided for myself that I don't want any more jabs - and recently broached it with NHS occupational health - who were surprisingly fine about it and more concerned I could wear gloves with my wrecked skin... but I don't push it onto anyone else - I just would like to be able sometimes to explain WHY my body's fucked! Perfectly happy to manage my own level of covid risk and shove LFT sticks up my nose when required by work - but society over the last year or so at points has had discourse to the level where I've pretty much been equated to a biohazard cannister on legs.

The Hart Group have lots of crossover with Us For Them, the far right, Medical Freedom Alliance or whatever it's called now etc. Robert Dingwall (sociology lecturer and ex member of JCVI) was put on gardening leave after being found to have links to them.
This was all in the public domain at least a year ago, if not more. The BBC did an exposé on the worrying links between HART and other far less savoury organizations and some of the groups they were linked to were found to be behind the recruitment of members of the public to hand out anti Vax stuff at school gates.

They did it themselves when they accidentally released their chat logs. Pretty sure that vaccines are killing people/giving people covid was one of the rumours they discussed starting to dissuade bpeople from getting the vaccine.

How are we to know that your family member isn't an anti vax troll? How are we to know the cardiologist your family member has told you about exists? Or that your family member does? You've namechanged to start this thread. Why is that? How do we know you don't have an anti Vax agenda?

The answer is- we don't. But you've linked to 2 people who are WIDELY known for misinterpretation of fact at best, and straightforward lies at worst.

And your thread has attracted HART supporters. As these threads tend to.

There's nothing wrong with questioning things. Of course not.

But, giving the benefit of the doubt, if you have no agenda here, then you need to learn to do your own judicious research and not just pass on the first Tiktok video you see that puts forward something you like the sound of.

I get all my most reliable information from tiktok.... Which my mate's sister's aunt's dog forwarded...

Because, yeah, a cardiologist is going to be publishing reliable info on there rather than in some heavily researched, peer-reviewed publication.

Nope. Nope. Nope.

(as an aside I believe my frozen shoulder was triggered by a mis-placed vaccination, but despite 3 proceedures and ALL the drugs I would have another (highly tested and approved) vaccine tomorrow if it was offered.)

Wiki is just a gathering of info. Do you not believe that he was disagreed with by cery credible and mainstream organisations? I'm sure with his online presence that AM is more than capable of getting his Wiki changed if it's not true.

He also believes that exercise doesn't help you lose weight.

Two of my friend's mum's have had very similar issues - both suffering since their booster- it's made their lives a misery 🙁

That was meant as a reply to CoffeeWithCheese !!!

Same experience here. Me, unvaccinated, just experienced cold-like symptoms. Could carry on as normal (twice now, first time in pregnancy). My husband, fully vaccinated, was wiped out for about a week with flu-like symptoms. My symptoms have been the mildest out of people I know. No doubt it'll be assumed to be coincidence as people automatically get so defensive about the vaccines.

@PAFMO if you're referring to me as a HART supporter, I assure you I've never heard of them.
I just don't like discussion being shut down and genuinely feel that we need to hear all educated and credible opinions to learn and move forward.

I knew it would be Aseem Malhotra before I even opened the link. He's got his own agenda and his views are in no way mainstream. He regularly gets discussed on doctor FB groups, not in a good way.

leftfootforward.org/2021/12/gb-news-platforms-misleading-research-about-vaccines-which-is-watched-more-than-2-million-times/

Educated and credible yes

Like the tobacco companies and oil companies of the past wanted people to see them as educated and credible

@PAFMO fair point. Family member is very pro vaccines, agrees that there are some issues showing up that many cardios are seeing.

@knittingaddict AM actually said that you can’t outrun a bad diet, and stated that when it comes to weight loss, diet is more effective than exercise. His views on diet are out of sync with NHS guidelines, but in line with some who have recently changed their protocols on diet following newer research and moving on from the poor science that most diet advice is based on, so I’m still not convinced that his discrediting is not down to him having different views.

Honestly I’m not trying to be an arse here! I’m pro vaxx, up to date with all vaccinations, I’m genuinely finding the mixed messages and the shut down of conversation (although this thread has been a good one for talk) confusing.

Trust me, he's not. When he implied on a FB post that he had been given an award by the BMA, they very rapidly disowned him....

twitter.com/TheBMA/status/1542105720069529602/photo/1

twitter.com/TheBMA/status/1542031110347038722

Thanks for the links, will watch later. Nothing wrong with discussion on a forum, anecdotal or otherwise.

The poliomyelitis vaccine killed some when it first came out. They solved this problem. This latest mutation is milder hence the hesitancy from even the over 60s. We've had people who have been adversely affected by statins.

I've had five operations since march, some drugs to help me I had an adverse reaction to. But not everyone does.

I think the latest tweak of the COVID vaccine may well be out of date if and when covid mutates again. It's a slippery virus

Well my DSis had the vaccine and didn't really know she had covid. My BIL had no vaccine and ended up in ICU.

Most people I know that have been vaccinated haven't had it as badly as those that haven't.

Anecdotal evidence means nothing.