Is it ok to ask about the ramping up of vaccine side effects stories?

[SparklingJam]

I’m generally pro vaccines, but I’m starting to question the effects of the covid jab, and wonder if it’s possible to have a discussion about it. Apologies if this has been done to death, or isn’t an accepted topic.

I’ve been seeing more information about deaths of young men, how the vaccine isn’t very effective against covid, and hearing all about dreadful side effects, to the point where some people won’t have the jab because they “know” they’ll die.

I can fully accept that there are side effects, but the talk of increased deaths (apparently 1300 excess deaths per week, coupled with videos of supposed undertakers saying they are 50-100% busier now) is making me question things and worry.

Having said that, in my extended circle of friends, family and colleagues, I know many people who are mostly vaccinated, and apart from a day or 5 of feeling fluey they all have no side effects and haven’t died.
At the same time through the same extended group, I know a couple who have died of covid and several who still have long covid which has disabled them to varying degrees.

It would be logical to think that the excess deaths are a catch up to lock down and lack of hospital treatment, plus the current issues many have with seeing a gp or calling an ambulance, but I am assured by certain people that the excess deaths are solely due to the vaccine.

I would also save your sympathy for the people who have lost savings by investing in FTX, rather than trying to use it fuel vaccine hesistancy @peppathe3rd

I hope this does not impact the progress of future trials & for researchers who had secured funding - that's my concern, rather than that somehow it impacts the credibility of pre-existing findings.

It's a real leap of logic, even for these kinds of posts.

The vaccines work. The End.

There maybe a small number of people around the world who have suffered adverse effects – there always are with any vaccine – but that doesn't negate the beneficial effect for the vast majority. And it is not because the vaccines were OK'd too quickly or without sufficient testing.

The effectiveness of the vaccines is proven by the data. If you prefer anecdote, DD2 was doing a Masters in infectious diseases during peak Covid at a world-leading university whose staff were frequently quoted in the media throughout the pandemic. Everyone at this institution, from the lecturers and professors, to the Masters and PhD students (no undergrads at this university), to the lab assistants was fully vaccinated. Not because they were forced to be but because they knew that the risks posed by the vaccines are miniscule compared to the risks posed by getting Covid.

So you think that worldwide, multiple governments of multiple countries put on a big show of trying out many repurposed drugs in trials, purely to lie about the results? And the thousands of scientists involved in analysis and publication of results were persuaded to be complicit?

Rightio.

And they did all that just so FTX could maybe someday, somehow, make a profit from vaccine development. Amazing.

I have to say, this last part of the thread is providing an unusually illuminating window into how conspiracy theories work.

Maybe that’s down to the nature of your other posts. I’m not sure why you’d deliberately throw in cryptic comments on several threads without giving any explanation as to what you mean. As if we are all expected to know. Goading. Is that really such a ‘fun’ thing to do - to mislead people and encourage them to be scared/sceptical about consensus science when they need to make important decisions for themselves/ their family regarding their health. It’s pure arrogance to think you know so much better and to post without context.

I have never encountered a group of people so quick to attack. It's disgusting. I genuinely was interested to learn the opinions of the brilliant researchers on here who have participated in these medical trials. I thought that perhaps they would have insight that I couldn't have since I have never participated in medical trials. Perhaps a corrupt source of funding is irrelevant to the medical findings - perhaps not. I have no idea, but I expected those kind of reactions - i.e. the medical research side is completely separate from the funding side and has no influence over the result assuming ethical practices were implemented, OR, it is problematic and here's why... i posted it in the 2 threads because at one point, someone on here wrote they had participated in the Together Trials. I couldn't remember on which thread this person wrote, nor their name, so I posted in the 2 threads hoping that person might see it and give insight. That's it!! No conspiracy or fear peddling or any of the other offensive intentions that you all have assigned to my post. It must be horrible to feel the need to attack, insult, deride and judge a perfect stranger they way you all have done since I had the misfortune of discovering this forum.

genuinely was interested to learn the opinions of the brilliant researchers on here who have participated in these medical trials

eh - as far as I'm aware no posters on MN have claimed to have worked specifically on Together or other coronavirus trials?

If you're talking about participating, that's nothing to do with being a researcher, "brilliant" or otherwise.

It's disgusting. I genuinely was interested to learn the opinions of the brilliant researchers on here who have participated in these medical trials. I thought that perhaps they would have insight that I couldn't have since I have never participated in medical trials.

Why would someone who happened to be a trial participant have insight into how they worked or their funding?

It is hard to take your posts in good faith because of your repeated style of posting @peppathe3rd

If you'd just said something like

"FTX contributed to funding of the Together trial which examined efficacy of existing drugs in treating COVID. FTX have since got bust in a huge scandal which has seen investors lose money. I think that compromises integrity of pre-existing findings from the Together trial because of xyz. What do others think?"

You would have got a reasonable response.

Instead it's just veiled cryptic hints. You still haven't actually explained why you think it's problematic.

Yes, not as a participant, as a researcher. The only reason the FTX thing struck a chord is because I believe someone on here wrote about being involved in the trial (as a researcher, not as a participant). I had never heard of the Together Trial until a post months back, so when i saw the news today, I thought I would ask. I was SUPER busy all day and wrote the quick message in the hope that that person might see it and reply. In no way was I trying to be cagey or attempting to goad or fear monger or any of the other claims you all have thrown my way. If you all did not persistently assume the absolute worst, I would be very grateful. Several posters on here have such a high level of academic and medical engagement in the pandemic response that I have found it a privilege to be able to access some of these great minds. Wading through the insults is not fun, but there is usually great information in between the derision, so I have stuck it out. So much time is wasted with the attacks. I don't presume to know the intentions behind them, but there is a real person behind the words and sometimes the insults and presumptions are hard to take.

The most ridiculous thing about these posts is that it doesn't even look like FTX did fund any of the Together substudies referenced by @peppathe3rd - certainly not any of the repositioning studies like ivermectin. Their funding came later, and they are not mentioned in any of the funding acknowledgments.

Correct me if I'm wrong?

This is from a recent article.

On May 16 2022, the TOGETHER trial receives the award and announces more than $18 million in funding and purchase commitments from the FTX Foundation that will enable the expansion of the trial from Brazil and Canada, to include experienced sites in South Africa, Rwanda, the Democratic Republic of the Congo, the Bahamas, Pakistan, Vietnam, and Ghana.

"We are incredibly honoured to receive this award and to work with the FTX Foundation. The TOGETHER Trial is truly an international collaboration and this award is a tribute to the entire team and also the patients who participated,"

So research from May 2022 will have been funded by FTX. Still unsure as to why the fact they have since announced bankruptcy means the results can't be trusted though - the dodgy CEO isn't the one running the trials or analysing data.

FTX aren't even listed as a funding source for this study? @peppathe3rd

From the paper:

Supported by FastGrants and the Rainwater Charitable Foundation.

Thank you so much for your excellent research. Yes, it seems FTX joined the financing in May as you found. I'm really sorry to have posted something that was incorrect, and I am very happy to know that this did not happen. The idea of these important studies being compromised by unethical funding is awful, and I am relieved that I was wrong in my assumption. I read about this having taken place and FTX was on the Together Trials home page, but I did not investigate further regarding the dates. No wonder none of the medical team on here had heard about it - because it didn't happen. I am thrilled to have been wrong and to have been corrected. Thank you. I'll post this same message on the other thread to avoid anyone else wasting time. Do you all think I should delete the earlier posts? I don't want to mislead anyone to be sure!

It touches a very raw nerve with me - the science denial. My personal experience, the near death of a family member - a young family member with MIS and another suffering long Covid. Not being able to get my children in education until the pandemic subsided. My experience reflects what was happening globally. So when there are anecdotal posts on here about unverified and disproportionate vaccine injury experiences, people sowing seeds of doubt without proper context - and reading these claims after just having had my teenage daughter jabbed - it makes my blood boil. If people attack, there might be good reason. If Mumsnet delete your posts - there might be good reason. The debate IS important, but - as it follows the same continuous style - it gets incredibly frustrating - and almost comes across as sinister. What is the motive for encouraging others to doubt consensus medical guidance?

@EmEllGee
I understand your frustration, especially when you attach the filter of a sinister motive to me. I am not motivated by an attempt to sway people in any direction. I am looking for information, and shared some inaccurate facts today, for which I apologised. It seems as if, no matter how I explain, you are determined to see a destructive agenda behind my words. I don't know how else to apologise for the false information about FTX. I assume that everyone is making the best, most thoroughly researched and considered choices for themselves and their families, and I am not trying to interfere in that. I'm very sorry that i upset you today, especially in light of your daughter's recent vaccination. I have written before that every single person in my family is vaccinated, including my teenage godsons, and all I want is their health and longevity of course!!! I have chosen not to have the vaccine for reasons that I am certain would not be interesting to you all, but that does not mean that I have disrespect for your decisions. I think that instilling fear in people that have already been vaccinated would be vile and would weigh heavily on my conscience. Do you really think my posts have that effect?