Is it ok to ask about the ramping up of vaccine side effects stories?

[SparklingJam]

I’m generally pro vaccines, but I’m starting to question the effects of the covid jab, and wonder if it’s possible to have a discussion about it. Apologies if this has been done to death, or isn’t an accepted topic.

I’ve been seeing more information about deaths of young men, how the vaccine isn’t very effective against covid, and hearing all about dreadful side effects, to the point where some people won’t have the jab because they “know” they’ll die.

I can fully accept that there are side effects, but the talk of increased deaths (apparently 1300 excess deaths per week, coupled with videos of supposed undertakers saying they are 50-100% busier now) is making me question things and worry.

Having said that, in my extended circle of friends, family and colleagues, I know many people who are mostly vaccinated, and apart from a day or 5 of feeling fluey they all have no side effects and haven’t died.
At the same time through the same extended group, I know a couple who have died of covid and several who still have long covid which has disabled them to varying degrees.

It would be logical to think that the excess deaths are a catch up to lock down and lack of hospital treatment, plus the current issues many have with seeing a gp or calling an ambulance, but I am assured by certain people that the excess deaths are solely due to the vaccine.

You need to provide links for all your claims/stats or get your thread deleted otherwise it’s just nonsense

You can ask about it but I think people will want some evidence rather than stories from your family and friends

'Certain people' ? Who are they, and what are the qualifications which make their assurances worth listening too?

I’ll see if I can find the links.

There have been a few drs making videos about side effects that have ended up on tiktok, but I’m not sure where original videos are from.

I’m not so much saying that I believe all the scare stories, or need them verifying, but the excess deaths are concerning.

Surely one can start any thread without facts when interested in discussion.

The OP is specifically asked for discussion in their opening post.

I'm very interested in anything that is put forward on this topic from either "side".

scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=Covid+vaccine+deaths+side+effects&btnG=#d=gs_qabs&t=1662112990483&u=%23p%3Df_J8Ytql-mQJ

an example of a study looking at numbers needed to have vaccine to prevent mortality vs number of deaths from the vaccine and asking for a review of their efficacy.

I agree with you OP that although at the time they were rolled out quickly with little debate, the time has now come to ask questions freely and not feel vilified so that we can accurately assess the need for ongoing boosters, especially now that a lot of the population will have had Covid and have some natural immunity.

There’s this link, to someone who shares where the data comes from.

I tend to ignore people who aren’t qualified to have an opinion, but I’m seeing more drs speaking out, but once those videos have ended up on tiktok, without credit to an original source.

This from an NHS cardiologist

vm.tiktok.com/ZMNTdvta9/

There are plenty of credible people saying concerning things, but everything is so polarised now it’s difficult to have any discussion without it being deemed scaremongering or being anti vaxx.

You sound like Trump. "Some people say (I'm a genius)".

No I'm not worried. Yes I will have my booster when it's offered this autumn.

Name these credible sources.

Thank you for sharing the videos, we should be discussing this

Aren't the excess deaths due to the over stretching of the NHS due to Covid, long waiting lists and possibly lockdowns. I highly doubt it is a direct result of the vaccine. Vaccines don't really work like that.

This definitely should be discussed as either there should be genuine concerns or we can put it down to other factors such as lockdowns or gp surgeries being closed and learn from that going forward.
We all know that people are different and it may be that some people will have adverse reactions, just as to covid, so they should be identified too.

I know 3 people who died from Covid. I don’t know anyone who died or was very ill from The Vaccine.
I think it’s ok to express concerns about any medicines but most of the population don’t understand the process and everything else that happens before they are approved for humans. I was involved in drug approval in my last job and I firmly believe the Vaccines are safe and have saved lives and will continue to do so. I trust the people and process (although it’s not always perfect)

Unfortunately there are too many people who are anti Vax due to MH issues or similar so people who express legitimate concerns get lost amongst that crowd

Who are these credible people?

Seriously?
What a weak comment.
“You sound like Trump” 🤔

There are drs (I’ve linked to two, including a top NHS consultant cardiologist) discussing this, yet we’re not allowed to talk? Why not?

If there are no issues fine, but there’s growing evidence that there may be some concern, no idea to what extent, but this is something we should be able to talk about like adults, without throwing cheap insults around.

Equally a large percentage of the population have had covid and the excess deaths could also be due to that (increased risk of heart attacks, blood clots and strokes). This increased risk is for up to a year I think but covid wouldn’t necessarily be mentioned on death certificate if had been a few months. I know of someone in his twenties who had blood clots in his lungs which doctors think was due to covid months earlier.

I think the vaccines can cause the same side effects but in much smaller numbers. My guess is that this is because the spike protein isn’t good for us and causes lots of vascular issues. However for most people the spike protein from the vaccine stays in the arm. Therefore if there is any reason why vaccines might be causing excess deaths covid itself is likely causes them in far greater numbers.

Yes I agree, this is what I think is happening.

When there are drs such as Aseem Malhotra (NHS cardiologist) talking about a worrying increase in heart issues it’s probably as well to be able to ask questions.

The doctor doing the interview is Dr Aseem Malhotra. This is part of his Wiki page:

Maholtra's views on diet and health have been criticized by the British Heart Foundation as "misleading and wrong", and his public questioning of the need ever to use statins has been condemned as a danger to public health.[10] His "Pioppi diet" was named by the British Dietetic Association as one of the "top 5 worst celeb diets to avoid in 2018".[4] During the COVID-19 pandemic Malhotra published a book called The 21-Day Immunity Plan[11] making claims that following the diet could quickly help people reduce their risk from the virus; critics point out that such claims are not backed by medical research evidence.[1]

Credible source or self publicist.

Yes, this.

Sorry that should be Credible source or self publicist?

Yes I agree.

I also think that the vast majority don’t understand statistics and how they work, so there’s an awful lot of flawed data out there.

My issue is that there’s such an influx of anti vaxx information at the moment, and it makes me worry.

I am happy to let the medics, who know what they are talking about, have this discussion without my input.

Governments and medics and researchers have a vested interest in keeping us all alive and working at the cheapest possible cost.

At the moment, they are doing so via vaccination campaigns targeted at the people most likely to benefit from them.

If they become counter productive- side effects, high costs, poor efficacy- you can be damn sure they'll be saving the money and stopping them.

There are whole swathes of people who study this, debate it and advise governments. I'm happy to leave it to them. I'll turn up for my jab as and when I'm offered it!

This is also on his Wiki:

COVID-19
In 2020 during the COVID-19 pandemic and before there were any approved vaccines for COVID-19, Malhotra published a book[11] claiming that following his dietary advice could grant "metabolic optimization" which would, in 21 days, decrease the risk of viral infection. David Gorski criticized the book[1] because the biggest single risk factor for COVID-19 infection is age, which people cannot change. Gorski said that while Malhotra had a germ of a good point and that it was undeniable that losing weight for someone who is obese would reduce their risk of complications, the claims about the book were massively exaggerated and there was no specific evidence for the impact of lifestyle recommendations on the risk of COVID-19 or that Malhotra's version of a healthy diet was better or worse than any other healthy lifestyle recommendation. Gorski was also concerned that telling people that they should be in control of their susceptibility to disease may have an element of victim blaming because that shifts responsibility for disease onto individuals, many of whom are unable to follow the kind of diet Malhotra advocates.[1]
In November 2021, Malhotra appeared on GB News to discuss an abstract for an academic poster published by Steven Gundry and which the American Heart Association had warned may contain "potential errors". Malhotra claimed that the abstract supported "a significantly increased risk from 11% at five years, the risk of heart attack, to 25%." after taking mRNA vaccines against COVID-19. Full Fact warned that "Serious concerns have been raised as to the quality of the research".[63]

So he was an anti vaccine grifter long before any evidence of increased heart attacks.