Is it ok to ask about the ramping up of vaccine side effects stories?

[SparklingJam]

I’m generally pro vaccines, but I’m starting to question the effects of the covid jab, and wonder if it’s possible to have a discussion about it. Apologies if this has been done to death, or isn’t an accepted topic.

I’ve been seeing more information about deaths of young men, how the vaccine isn’t very effective against covid, and hearing all about dreadful side effects, to the point where some people won’t have the jab because they “know” they’ll die.

I can fully accept that there are side effects, but the talk of increased deaths (apparently 1300 excess deaths per week, coupled with videos of supposed undertakers saying they are 50-100% busier now) is making me question things and worry.

Having said that, in my extended circle of friends, family and colleagues, I know many people who are mostly vaccinated, and apart from a day or 5 of feeling fluey they all have no side effects and haven’t died.
At the same time through the same extended group, I know a couple who have died of covid and several who still have long covid which has disabled them to varying degrees.

It would be logical to think that the excess deaths are a catch up to lock down and lack of hospital treatment, plus the current issues many have with seeing a gp or calling an ambulance, but I am assured by certain people that the excess deaths are solely due to the vaccine.

AM actually said that you can’t outrun a bad diet, and stated that when it comes to weight loss, diet is more effective than exercise

That's correct. It's his anti vaxx views which make him not a respected source

In their time though there were credible experts and drs saying that smoking was fine.

It wasn’t until years later that the dangers of smoking became apparent and anecdotal evidence led to research.

and the shut down of conversation (although this thread has been a good one for talk) confusing.

Because incorrect facts are quite frankly dangerous.

hmm something to think about. Thank you

@SparklingJam yes this exactly. As time goes on, we learn.

As for AM, as he's a cardiologist it might be that he's looked into myorcarditis and pericarditis and takes his stance from there.
I'm not saying he's right or wrong or even if that's the case, but as he's an expert cardiologist then that's going to be his area of concern.
It's worth looking into further.

I haven't read the full thread, but here's a link about myocarditis that seems to refute the vaccine causation (the ultimate takeaway being that if you're a person who has a severe side effect from the vaccine, you would likely have had the same or worse from the virus)

fullfact.org/health/covid-vaccine-myocarditis-false/

And also an in-depth FT analysis of excess deaths concluded the number was due to the fact that NHS/A&E services are under a critical level of strain. I'll try to find the link and post it.

Also, John Campbell, despite being really good in the beginning, has sadly jumped the shark.

You weren't the poster linking to them, so, no. I didn't mean you.

The anti-vaxxers are ramping it up again as the new tweaked vaccine is being released.

Remember, the AstraZeneca vaccine was found to cause blood clots. The chances were tiny but they withdrew it anyway, even though it was boing sold at cost so by far the cheapest option. Where's the incentive to cover up side effects in the more costly vaccines? You could say our government is in the pockets of the pharmaceutical firms, but are ALL governments?

The best thing to do when you hear a claim such as these is to investigate who is making the claim. Are they a credible source? Don't assume that just because they are a doctor, even of medicine, that they know what they're talking about. I've seen antivaxxers present Mathematicians as credible 'medical' doctors! Also, are what they are presenting up to date? Currently some are using a study from December 2020 to say that the vaccine is not safe for pregnant and breastfeeding women. We know it is as it's now been tested on them. Has the research been peer reviewed? Does it really say what they say it says? That's one I've encountered a lot. The reading comprehension of many people seems to be quite poor. Didn't a study come out the other day that said more than 50% of the population read at a primary school level...?

Heart issue ARE increasing but mainly due to Covid infections, not the vaccine.

I'll start by saying this is anecdotal, I've been very pro vaccine and as a vulnerable person have had 3 jabs. I also haven't had Covid.

I currently have Pericarditis. It's horrible. I was in hospital for 8 days and now 5 weeks later I am still pretty much living on the sofa rattling with drugs.

My Pericarditis is thought to have been triggered by a lung infection. I am asthmatic and get frequent lung infections. I didn't even know I had this infection though - it showed up on x ray, I wasn't coughing and only one doctor out of about 6 who listened to my chest could hear a crackle.

As I said, I'm used to lung infections - and pneumonia in the past. But I have never had anything at all like Pericarditis before.
My last jab was last October - so nine months ago. I am not a young fir male but a middle-aged woman. My jabs may have absolutely nothing at all to do with my illness.
But... there is a wall of secrecy around discussion. Which leaves people like me in a very difficult position moving forward. Do I have my 4th jab as I am considered very vulnerable? Or could that trigger the Pericarditis? (Pericarditis can become chronic or recurrent if not treated properly first time round!)

I went on the British heart Foundation Forum to try and find out more. Every post relating to the vaccine / effects has been removed. I know this is largely done to keep the anti-vax brigade out of it... but it makes it very, very difficult, as the OP has said, for reasonable and responsible discussion which needs to take place.

FT link on excess deaths

www.ft.com/content/f36c5daa-9c14-4a92-9136-19b26508b9d2

Why are we the people to have that discussion though?

Why not the HCPs and researchers?

Yes it needs discussing- but by people who know what they are talking about. Your average man on the street doesn't have anything bar limited anecdotal evidence to offer.

HCPs have more anecdotal evidence to offer.
Researchers have actual information.

“That's correct. It's his anti vaxx views which make him not a respected source”

So this is what concerns me. Anyone who has worries about the vaccination is discredited.

I’m not saying he is right, but the immediate shutdown towards anyone asking questions (and there are more drs asking) is weird. If some drs have concerns there should surely be the opportunity for them to discuss them and for them to be disproved, which is what science is all about.
At the moment anyone saying anything vaguely negative, even with relevant credentials, is being shut down. Which is odd.

Yes, I agree, this should be sorted out by those who know, but as the public are the ones who will be having the jabs there must surely be some understanding that the shut down of anything but pro vax will start/is starting to make people wary.

Whether that’s a manipulative ploy by anti vaxxers (and I can well believe it is), the roll out of the vaccines very much relies on the trust of the population.

@SparklingJam
(and there are more drs asking)

Who and how many? This is the kind of statement that tends to send these discussions off the rails. It's a vague and uproveable allegation that sounds scary but is meaningless. Even if you could name 500 doctors in this category, what percentage of doctors in the UK or the west or the world would this represent?

For what it's worth, my mother's a doctor and my father is a professor of medical biology, so I know a lot of doctors (including quite a few cardiologists) and every single one has had all available vaccines and had their families take them. Since I know that their information comes from reading the most up to date studies and papers and talking to their peers, I trust their judgment on it.

When you know the vaccination programme has been highly successful, yes anyone with anti vax views has automatically discredited themselves

If someone wanted to tell you how wonderful smoking was for your lungs you would rightly think of them as a nut case

....

Agree
The danger is when opinions are confused with facts
Its ok to have a view on anything but the scientific facts overwhelmingly prove that the vaccines are safe and effective for the vast majority of people

Safertowait is connected to the more radicalised offshoots of Hart.
They are the ones I mentioned above, who take on the campaigns Hart won't dirty its hands on like the radicalisation of parents into promoting anti-vax stuff at the school gate and trolling reputable journalists who write about them.

I suspect you know this already.

@Womblewoman1 I don't understand. It's safer to wait for what? All I see is that they are persuading you NOT to give it to your child, what are they waiting for before saying it is safe?

Some of their 10 points are now out of date so is it safe now?
The vaccines have been given to billions of people, is it safe now?
They are no longer under emergency use and are fully licensed, is it safe now?
It's been over a year since they were released, is it safe now?
'Natural' immunity offers next to no protection for the new variants, is it safe now?
The vaccines have been proven to prevent spread of the virus, is it safe now?

I love the way Dr. Malhotra's (own) website describes him as "one of the most influential cardiologists in Britain". I mean, what league table did they draw that conclusion from?

Anyway, if you think AM is so great, then note his big hobby horse for almost 10 years is all about sugar consumption (should be cut, he says, and that dietary fat isn't important to heart disease risk). So of course I'm sure everyone concerned about vaccines based on Malhotra's views has already cut their sugar intake to a bare minimum, right? And they can't possibly be obese because that is another big message AM makes (don't be fat). He's also not too keen on statins.

British Heart Foundation is not too keen on AM. Neither is British Dietetic Assoc. Maybe he just says stuff some ppl want to hear. And if we cite 50 ppl who say something different, they'll get ignored because the listener didn't want to hear them.

Here is another interesting correlation my friend pointed out to me though I've not had the opportunity to review it yet - alternative experts who people whose medium of communication tends to be videos instead of publishing peer-reviewed text-based research papers with rigorous evidence bases examining falsifiable theses...

I don't understand all the info around vaccines. I don't understand how they work, how they're made, what the risks are. It all makes my head hurt. But I'm married to a scientist and so knows loads of others in all sorts of different fields. And every one of them took the first available vaccine slot they could book. So I did, and will continue to do the same. When the shit hits the fan stick with those who are experts at dealing with shit.

It's not just cardiologists who have concerns. Oncologists do too. I'm on a group for vaccine injured people and the stories are absolutely shocking and sad. And the censorship from top professionals is sickening. But I knew all of it before the jabs came out as I had a bad reaction to a flu jab many years ago and did my own research. It's all out there to find if you chose to look.

@lljkk the science that demonised animal fats in the 1950s was deeply flawed - iirc using the results of feeding animal fats to rabbits (vegetarian animals with systems that cannot cope with animal products) to show how bad they are for humans, arguably setting many humans up for a lifetime of obesity by consuming more low fat foods that human bodies don’t necessarily process well.

There are a growing number of drs accepting a low carb diet as beneficial for weight loss, and growing anecdotal evidence for its benefits on auto immune conditions (in several fb groups that have regular discussions about this, and learning that more and more GPs are adopting this advice), and the fact that keto diet can reverse type 2 diabetes.

Tbh this makes me see him as more credible, that he’s willing to stick his neck out on the controversial topic of diet.

I suppose time will tell.