Is it ok to ask about the ramping up of vaccine side effects stories?

[SparklingJam]

I’m generally pro vaccines, but I’m starting to question the effects of the covid jab, and wonder if it’s possible to have a discussion about it. Apologies if this has been done to death, or isn’t an accepted topic.

I’ve been seeing more information about deaths of young men, how the vaccine isn’t very effective against covid, and hearing all about dreadful side effects, to the point where some people won’t have the jab because they “know” they’ll die.

I can fully accept that there are side effects, but the talk of increased deaths (apparently 1300 excess deaths per week, coupled with videos of supposed undertakers saying they are 50-100% busier now) is making me question things and worry.

Having said that, in my extended circle of friends, family and colleagues, I know many people who are mostly vaccinated, and apart from a day or 5 of feeling fluey they all have no side effects and haven’t died.
At the same time through the same extended group, I know a couple who have died of covid and several who still have long covid which has disabled them to varying degrees.

It would be logical to think that the excess deaths are a catch up to lock down and lack of hospital treatment, plus the current issues many have with seeing a gp or calling an ambulance, but I am assured by certain people that the excess deaths are solely due to the vaccine.

@knittingaddict well that’s reassuring! I can happily ignore a self publicist!

I'm concerned, OP, that your opening premise is 'Should we be worried about having the vaccine, because some people are saying it is dangerous/ineffective?'

Your opening premise should be, I think, "should we be worried that people are undermining the vax campaign again?".

Which do you mean? The first one is at risk, I think, of being disinformation.

Dr John Campbell is a nurse rather than a doctor in case you don’t know that

Good points.
Not sure the current government have our best interests at heart, but yes to the rest.

Yes, but that doesn't cover how irresponsible it is to put dodgy sources on the internet without checking whether they are credible or not. If people like me don't look them up then others will take them at face value. Please check first. If you can't find a reliable source then that tells you something.

A relative is doing research on the Covid vaccine due out this autumn. Lots of volunteers in the study, from what they say I will definitely be having the vaccine when it’s my turn.

Yes I know he is.
Is a nurse not credible?
I followed him as I liked that he showed all his sources and always seemed very balanced in the way he discussed everything.

There are lots of qualified doctors, like the one above, whose anti-vax rhetoric has totally discredited any valid points they may have regarding not only Covid, but their own specialities. Which is a great shame, given the dearth of staff in the medical profession.

I'd say a good rule of thumb as to the validity of any medical professional's assertions are if they are the result of peer reviewed research and published in something like the BMJ, or a self-published Tiktok video.

I'd also look at the actual figures. At one point last year, when the govt had confirmed that in the UK NINE deaths had occurred following vaccination that MAY have been directly or indirectly caused BY the vaccine, there was a MNer (hopefully now banned) claiming that 3 people she knew had died from the vaccine and more had been permanently disabled.

I know that one of my friends died as a direct result of the Covid vaccine (she had a blood clot), but I also know that I'll likely die if I take penicillin... but that doesn't mean that no one else should take penicillin or that it isn't safe. It just means that I happen to fall into the minutely small catergory of people who are allergic to it, same as my friend unfortunately fell into the vanishingly small group of people who have/had serious reactions to the Covid jab.

Wakefield made a lot of money out of discrediting the MMR. When it's a few lone voices I'd be very sceptical. Especially when the Covid virus itself has been shown to cause cardiac issues

To be fair, whilst AM might be a self publicist he is still a highly respected cardiologist (family member is a colleague of his), whose views, whilst seen as controversial, are agreed with by many other cardiologists.

I understand what you’re saying, but right now we live in a world where anyone speaking against the grain is vilified, wiki can be edited, so it’s very difficult right now to know who is credible or not.

"Not sure the current government have our best interests at heart, but yes to the rest."

Strangely, they don't need to. They want a cheap, tax paying population. It's in their interests to keep us functioning efficiently. Not happily, not fulfilled, artistic or whatever. But functioning and cheap to keep.

They do not want us suffering long Covid, sitting in hospitals or dying.
They want us earning and spending.

Now if you were to suggest they were engineering the population by increasing Fertility so we produce drones to pay for this generations pensions and care...

But the last thing the government wants is an unproductive population. So our best interests align in this case!

If we are considering anecdotal experiences, as Dr Malhotra seems to, I have nursed many people who are critically unwell with Covid. I have not nursed anyone unwell as a result of the vaccine - in a department that sees over 600 patients a day.

Also the claims made in the abstract he discussed have been criticised by the American Heart Association (lots of doctors who aren’t courting the press), and Full Fact, a great charity seeking to combat disinformation.

Full Fact review of his claims

Some nurses are credible. Campbell very definitely isn't.

fullfact.org/health/john-campbell-youtube-singapore-children/

Just one of the multitude of fact checks about how he takes a statistic, compares it to something incomparable, then makes a video asserting that because 2 is 2 and the sky is blue, there are, in fact, 2 blue skies.

He's not actually a conspiracy theorist, just a bit of an idiot who doesn't seem to understand the data he interprets and makes videos about.

I’m not sure why we would attribute excess deaths to vaccines? More obvious causes include the impact of the pandemic with regards to emotional stress and financial stress and perhaps most obviously reduced access to healthcare during this period which in the UKnis very much continuing? There are also considerations such as long term cardiovascular impacts of covid itself that could lead to other deadly health issues down the line. Excess deaths are probably due to a combination of factors but it definitely doesn’t have the feel of being mysterious. If you drill down by country or region as well that will likely make the causes clearer - we didn’t all experience the same covid infection rates or the same lockdown measures or the same economic impacts, but probably many developed nations do have broadly similar vaccinations rates, so we could compare on that basis.

Another possibility for excessive deaths is probably down to lifestyle choices made during lockdown/Covid times. Excess stress, anxiety, alcohol, smoking, drug use, lack of movement or exercise, increased food intake etc.

The health implications and impact on the NHS and deaths will carry on for some years yet.

We knew that at the time and Professor Witty et al told us that at the time.

Very interesting thread op

There have been a few drs making videos about side effects that have ended up on tiktok, but I’m not sure where original videos are from.

And therein lies the problem. You don't know who they are, or where they're getting info from, it may as well be Doris from the corner shop telling you.

FWIW I do know a few young people who've died this year. Three were from cancer that they already had before the pandemic, and four were people who took their own life, two of whom lost their business because of the pandemic.

@FloorWipes and @DutchessOfMuck those are the reasons I think as well.

My problem is that that when people are telling me how dangerous the vaccines are, even though I don’t believe that, snippets of doubt sneak in. I imagine that’s very human, and if I (a generally logical, science loving person) am struggling with this, then others are too!

I think it's good it's being discussed, but feel strongly the discussion should be among health professionals- researchers.

Publicising elements of it that are eye catching, is very unhelpful. The vast majority of people coming across it aren't able to critically appraise it or to contribute to the discussion.

It's like opening rocket science up to public debate. Pointless.

The last most convincing analysis of any recent 'non-COVID' excess deaths analysed by cohort age showed it related to delayed health interventions which were still the significantly better option compared with the effects of not locking down.

"To be fair, whilst AM might be a self publicist he is still a highly respected cardiologist (family member is a colleague of his), whose views, whilst seen as controversial, are agreed with by many other cardiologists.

I understand what you’re saying, but right now we live in a world where anyone speaking against the grain is vilified, wiki can be edited, so it’s very difficult right now to know who is credible or not."

I agree with this. If a respected cardiologist is highlighting something, then may be the attitude should be 'let's consider what he's saying and invest in some further research'
What's with all the immediate discrediting?

I think your feelings are perfectly natural @SparklingJam we were and still are in an unknown situation. We didn't have time to stop, think, question, analyse. We were given a vaccine and went for it. Like everything time/ history will show us the good bits and what could have been done differently.

Now and in the future is the time to look back, reflect and discuss. I as previous posters and yourself believe in discussion about all sides of this coin it's the only way we will learn and pass on that knowledge for future generations.

You can start a thread without providing links. It’s Mumsnet, not court!

I think there is going to be a lot more insidious and public efforts to undermine the vaccination programme and the role of experts in the approach towards covid. Rishi Sunak made statements along the lines of how he (now) thinks there was too much notice taken of experts and SAGE when how to tackle a global pandemic.

We still have to cope with covid. We still have people who tragically get very unwell and die from covid. The potential risk of short term cardiac issues with young men was publicised, but it hasn't been seen as a long term problem and is treatable according to the NHS and WHO.