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Campaign to review child covid vaccination by Gt Ormond St Hospital expert

169 replies

perfectSmiles3 · 09/01/2022 21:23

Without the intent to cause panic... why is this not in the news?

There was an open letter sent to JCVI (copy of the letter is online) signed by about 15 well-regarded medical professionals and an even greater number of MPs urging the JCVI to review the current child vaccination programme.

I've also come across an interview with one of the signatories, Prof Brent Taylor, Emeritus Professor of Community Child Health, UCL Great Ormond Street Institute of Child Health discussing their concerns and the letter. I find it very unnerving listening to his words.

OP posts:
dementedpixie · 09/01/2022 21:25

You have not linked anything so don't know what you're talking about

Lockheart · 09/01/2022 21:26

Without the intent to cause panic... why is this not in the news?

Presumably they couldn't find any links to prove it either.

JanglyBeads · 09/01/2022 21:26

Think I know what you're referring to.
Yes iSAGE scientists have been calling for this for a long time.

LilyPond2 · 09/01/2022 21:28

OP, if you have found the letter online, why haven't you linked to it? Your post will make no sense to anyone who hasn't seen the letter.

perfectSmiles3 · 09/01/2022 21:30

the interview:

OP posts:
Westmeathtip · 09/01/2022 21:32

Can you summarise it for eejits like me?

dementedpixie · 09/01/2022 21:33

Sorry I don't want to watch YouTube. Can you paraphrase it

JanglyBeads · 09/01/2022 21:39

Oh this is almost the opposite of what I thought it was!

A certain group of scientists and MPs calling for a new risk benefit analysis for 12-15 yo jabs in the light of omicron and "some new studies".....

I'd bet this is U4T.

CatAlice · 09/01/2022 21:41

@JanglyBeads

Oh this is almost the opposite of what I thought it was!

A certain group of scientists and MPs calling for a new risk benefit analysis for 12-15 yo jabs in the light of omicron and "some new studies".....

I'd bet this is U4T.

I thought UFT as well. A sinister bunch.
bobbie42 · 09/01/2022 21:42

@dementedpixie

Sorry I don't want to watch YouTube. Can you paraphrase it
At one point he says something like "the case for vaccination for children is now weaker because omicron is less severe than delta".

Which is kind of silly because one of the main reasons omicron is causing so much less serious illness is because so many people are vaccinated!!!

willingtolearn · 09/01/2022 21:43

Brent Taylor, Professor Emeritus of Community Child Health at UCL Great Ormond Street Institute of Child Health and formerly a JCVI member for eight years, said:

The JCVI made a very sensible and laudable recommendation when it advised the Government last September against the mass vaccination of healthy children against COVID-19. The Committee was rightly concerned about the unknown potential harms of the new vaccines, in particular myocarditis.

Since the unfathomable decision of the CMO to go against that advice, second doses are now being offered to children despite further evidence of the potential harm of myocarditis, most worryingly the frequency, especially following the second dose. The latest CDC data reports elevated rates of post-vaccination myocarditis for boys aged 12-15, 2.5-24 times higher in the seven days after first dose and 24-228 times higher in the seven days after second dose.

So, whilst the absolute risks are still low they cannot be described as trivial and the absolute risk from COVID-19 to healthy children is negligible. Additionally, the vaccines stop neither infection nor transmission and many children will have broad and robust natural immunity following infection. I’m afraid the mass vaccination of healthy children is not based in sound evidence. It is time for the JCVI, the CMO and the Government to reassess all the evidence now available and alter its recommendation accordingly.

Westmeathtip · 09/01/2022 21:45

@bobbie42 “ Which is kind of silly because one of the main reasons omicron is causing so much less serious illness is because so many people are vaccinated!!!”

No, it’s not. It’s because it’s a less dangerous variant.

Watapalava · 09/01/2022 21:46

Any review will push vax the other way

Covid has been proven to cause myocarditis more than the vaccine

With elevated risk of catching covid now there is likely more reason to vaccinate teens 😂

Shooting them selves in the foot really

JanglyBeads · 09/01/2022 21:46

OP do you realise the Daily Sceptic is Toby Young et al's right wing anti lockdown publication? See eg here in their About section:

The idea is to challenge the new powerful class of government scientists and public health officials – as well as their colleagues in universities, grant-giving trusts, large international charities, Silicon Valley and the pharmaceutical industry – that have emerged as a kind of secular priesthood during the pandemic, providing not just practical advice but moral guidance, too.

perfectSmiles3 · 09/01/2022 21:46

To Members of the Joint Committee on Vaccines and Immunisation,

Re: Review of Child Vaccination Programme

On September 3rd 2021 the JCVI advised against recommending the mass vaccination of healthy 12-15-year-olds against COVID-19. The principal reason given for this was that, while the known benefits and harms from vaccination to this age group were both very small, the Committee was concerned about the unknown potential harms of the new vaccine, particularly the long-term and possibly serious risks of myocarditis. The JCVI estimated that for every one million 12-15-year-olds vaccinated with two doses, 2.54 ICU admissions would be avoided and up to 51 cases of myocarditis caused. Subsequently, the risk of myocarditis and other adverse events has been shown to be greater than believed by the JCVI at the time.

The Government referred the matter to the CMO, asking him to consider the ‘wider benefits’ to children of vaccination. On September 13th 2021 Professor Chris Whitty recommended that one dose of the vaccine be given to healthy 12-15-year-olds on the basis that it would possibly provide ‘marginal benefits’, specifically in reducing the time spent out of school as a result of Covid infection. This was calculated as a saving of, on average, 15 mins of education per child. (This estimate did not take into account disruption even from short term vaccine side effects and is also based on assumptions about the level of protection one dose of the vaccine gives against infection which have proved to be over-optimistic.)

The risk and benefit calculations made by the JCVI and the CMO were based on less complete data on both the harms and benefits of vaccinating children compared to the evidence now available. Four months later, we are in a very different position, with the virulent Delta variant almost completely replaced by the milder Omicron variant. Additionally, society now has a higher level of robust immunity from natural infection than it had when teenage vaccination was approved.

We have seen in recent weeks that Omicron is significantly more infectious than Delta (based on secondary attack rates, it was originally twice as transmissible as Delta, but this has declined to 1.3 times as transmissible as naturally acquired variant-specific immunity to it has risen). Vaccines are also far less effective at stemming the transmission of Omicron, compared to Delta (protection appears to fall to zero, three months after vaccination).

More data have emerged about the frequency of harmful side effects of Covid vaccination. One study found that for males under 40, risk of myocarditis was up to 14 times higher after vaccination than after infection (101 cases after the Moderna second dose, compared to seven cases after infection). It is particularly important to note that the risks of myocarditis in young men and boys seems to increase significantly after a second dose of the vaccine – which is why Chief Medical Officer Professor Chris Whitty initially recommended just one dose be given to 12-15 year olds – and yet we are now offering second doses to children, despite the evidence of risk growing.

The risks of adverse events (including but not limited to myocarditis) increase as more doses are given, and any advantages are reduced as vaccine effectiveness in
suppressing Omicron transmission decreases (especially given widespread natural immunity). Given that any potential benefits of vaccinating children were calculated to be marginal at best in the first place, we suspect that this margin has not only evaporated but actually reversed in light of the characteristics of the new and dominant Omicron variant and the increase in robust and durable naturally-acquired immunity.

Furthermore, the negligible risks of Covid infection to children have become even more nugatory if, as it appears, Omicron is associated with less severe disease, whereas the benefits of natural infection (rather than vaccination) in terms of longer lasting immunity are becoming more clear.

Unlike the elderly and clinically vulnerable population – for whom the potentially life-saving benefits of vaccination substantially outweigh any risks from vaccination – our children face no such threat from COVID-19 yet have 50 or more years of healthy life expectancy ahead of them that could be compromised by long-term vaccine harms. It is crucial that, if we are to proceed with the mass double vaccination of healthy children, we are absolutely certain that this policy will do more good than harm. Furthermore, we need to give consideration to what precedent is being set for triple or even continuous and regular vaccination for this age group.

We believe that the benefit to risk ratio of child vaccination should be reassessed in light of the Omicron variant and new evidence on both vaccine harms and superior natural immunity. We urge the JCVI to review this new evidence and provide updated advice to the Government with regards to the mass vaccination of healthy 12-15 year olds.

Yours sincerely,

Miriam Cates MP

Steve Brine MP

Thomas Coke, the Earl of Leicester

Philip Davies MP

Richard Drax MP

Baroness Foster of Oxton

Marcus Fysh MP

Paul Girvan MP

Chris Green MP

Mark Jenkinson MP

Pauline Latham MP

Karl McCartney MP

Rt Hon Esther McVey MP

Lord Moonie

Dr Andrew Murrison MP

Greg Smith MP

Graham Stringer MP

Sir Desmond Swayne MP

Derek Thomas MP

Sammy Wilson MP

William Wragg MP

Dr David Bell, Public Health Physician, formerly working on infectious diseases for the WHO

Professor Anthony Brookes, Genomics and Health Data Scientist, University of Leicester

Dr Iona Heath CBE, president of the Royal College of General Practitioners (2009 to 2012)

Professor Marilyn James, Health Economics, University of Nottingham

Dr John Lee, Retired Professor of Pathology

Professor David Livermore, Medical Microbiology, University of East Anglia

Professor David Paton, Industrial Economics, University of Nottingham

Professor Allyson Pollock, Clinical Professor of Public Health, Institute of Health and Society, Newcastle University

Dr Gerry Quinn, Biomedical Sciences, University of Ulster

Dr Roland Salmon, MRCGP, FFPH, former Director of the Communicable Disease Surveillance Centre (Wales)

Professor Brent Taylor, Professor Emeritus of Community Child Health, UCL Great Ormond Street Institute of Child Health

Professor Philip Thomas, Risk Management, Visiting Academic Professor, University of Bristol

Professor John Watkins, Epidemiology, Cardiff University

OP posts:
bobbie42 · 09/01/2022 21:48

[quote Westmeathtip]@bobbie42 “ Which is kind of silly because one of the main reasons omicron is causing so much less serious illness is because so many people are vaccinated!!!”

No, it’s not. It’s because it’s a less dangerous variant.[/quote]
We have no way of knowing that it is intrinsically less dangerous for sure - because it's not running through unvaccinated populations.

In the UK - almost everyone being infected with omicron either is vaccinated, or has COVID antibodies from prior infection.

We do not have evidence that it would be so mild in a population that is unvaccinated with low levels of prior infection.

BewareTheLibrarians · 09/01/2022 21:49

@JanglyBeads & @CatAlice
However did you guess Wink

mobile.twitter.com/karamballes/status/1480162284538318848

Skeptic MPs team up with members from disinformation groups Collateral Global, HART and the Great Barrington Declaration to pen a letter demanding an end to child vaccination

Put out via Toby Young Daily Skeptic by Will Jones, who doesnt mention hes a HART member

Following the money not their morals (to no one’s surprise).

BewareTheLibrarians · 09/01/2022 21:52

And if the whole thing is based on Omicron being milder, then it means they think that Omicron is the last variant that’s going to come out. They can’t honestly be that stupid, can they?

Westmeathtip · 09/01/2022 21:53

@bobbie42 sorry to disagree but again that’s not proven - it’s impossible to say whether most people infected are a) infected by the omicron variant unless the labs are running an assay on each sample or b) that most unvaccinated have antibodies as there’s hardly any antibody testing.
Correlation is not causation.

perfectSmiles3 · 09/01/2022 21:54

@JanglyBeads

OP do you realise the Daily Sceptic is Toby Young et al's right wing anti lockdown publication? See eg here in their About section:

The idea is to challenge the new powerful class of government scientists and public health officials – as well as their colleagues in universities, grant-giving trusts, large international charities, Silicon Valley and the pharmaceutical industry – that have emerged as a kind of secular priesthood during the pandemic, providing not just practical advice but moral guidance, too.

Not sure what the daily sceptic is, it wasn't me linking that source.

All I know is that I am not going to dismiss the voice of those treating children as a day job in world-renowned children's hospitals who have the experience of seeing hundreds of our kids since the UK began vaccinating.

OP posts:
dementedpixie · 09/01/2022 21:55

So it's a big load of bollocks then?
Thought so

JanglyBeads · 09/01/2022 22:03

[quote Westmeathtip]@bobbie42 sorry to disagree but again that’s not proven - it’s impossible to say whether most people infected are a) infected by the omicron variant unless the labs are running an assay on each sample or b) that most unvaccinated have antibodies as there’s hardly any antibody testing.
Correlation is not causation.[/quote]
You do know that scientific research is done into both these things using a controlled sample group?

And I think you meant to write that it's 'impossible to prove that the vaccinated have antibodies'.

Piggywaspushed · 09/01/2022 22:08

15 of those signatories are not medical professionals. Those that are are not in current front line practice. This is HART OP which is why only GB News reported it. And Toby Young's rag.

Twickerhun · 09/01/2022 22:09

Well that's not exactly a list of people I'm going to trust my kids health with. Mostly retired scientists not all from related fields and some dodgy mps?!