Campaign to review child covid vaccination by Gt Ormond St Hospital expert

[perfectSmiles3]

Without the intent to cause panic... why is this not in the news?

There was an open letter sent to JCVI (copy of the letter is online) signed by about 15 well-regarded medical professionals and an even greater number of MPs urging the JCVI to review the current child vaccination programme.

I've also come across an interview with one of the signatories, Prof Brent Taylor, Emeritus Professor of Community Child Health, UCL Great Ormond Street Institute of Child Health discussing their concerns and the letter. I find it very unnerving listening to his words.

As I have repeatedly stated on here, too, at least tow members of ISAGE are also members of SAGE. The people doing the discrediting are those who want to undermine the credentials and authority to speak of -sadly largely female- scientific voices.

They criticise them for posting on Twitter, a hugely influential platform- whilst not noting the irony of those wo are their detractors also being very active on Twitter.

That Pagel should be seen as less creditable than those who have signed that letter is frankly laughable.

If people don't want to discuss freely available UK government data on child hospitalisation with covid - which is going up at an alarming rate meaning there are lots of poorly little kids - but rather try and attack female scientists, that tells you something about them.

Personally, I'd like to know how many children are being affected. I think most people on mumsnet probably care about child health and would rather discuss the data.

Pagel and Gurdusani are academics (and experts in analysing large datasets) at respected UK universities. They wouldn't keep their jobs if they were just making stuff up for fun.

And yes, both Pagel and Gurdusani have had abusive threats made at them on twitter. Those are the people they block, not those who merely disagree.

Both Gurdusani and Pagel have been incredibly brave in the face of toxic abuse speaking up for children - asking why the government is doing so little to protect them, why there are insufficient CO2 monitors, no investement in ventilation, no air filters in schools. I'm very grateful to them both using their academic platform to speak up for better protections for my children.

@theemperorhasnoclothes

If people don't want to discuss freely available UK government data on child hospitalisation with covid - which is going up at an alarming rate meaning there are lots of poorly little kids - but rather try and attack female scientists, that tells you something about them.

Personally, I'd like to know how many children are being affected. I think most people on mumsnet probably care about child health and would rather discuss the data.

Pagel and Gurdusani are academics (and experts in analysing large datasets) at respected UK universities. They wouldn't keep their jobs if they were just making stuff up for fun.

I can't find the number for England. However in Scotland we had 118 under 18's go into hospital within 28 days of having a positive test. The period for this is 7 days.

Across the entire UK during the last 7 days; the amount of Children of all ages who have died within 28 days of a positive test is a massive zero.

The total numbers in hospital have dropped by a significant amount since Yesterday, The same with those within ICU.

Does that put your mind at ease any?

Across the entire UK during the last 7 days; the amount of Children of all ages who have died within 28 days of a positive test is a massive zero.

Pretty sure that is not true.

No sure I like the tone of massive.

What is your data source for 'the numbers in hospital have dropped a significant amount since yesterday' - can you show the data equivalent to the graph Prof Pagel showed?

I don't really think avoiding death of children is an adequate achievement though really - what is this, the middle ages? I'm interested in preventing avoidable disease and disability e.g. from PIMS and long covid (as well as the disruption these cause to education etc), not just death.

There have certainly been avoidable child deaths in this country though. You only have to look at the comparable figures of child deaths between 2020 (more mitigations in schools and elsewhere) and 2021 (fewer mitigations) to see that deaths and hospitalisations in children were higher when there were fewer protective measures in schools and elsewhere (e.g. no isolation of close or family contacts, no bubbles etc).

Here's the data for that statement... "Over 2,000 6-17 year olds have been admitted to hospital with covid-19 since 1 September and 10 5-14 year olds have died with covid as contributing cause, compared to 720 and two respectively over the same period in 2020.
www.bmj.com/content/375/bmj.n3149

The total numbers in hospital have dropped by a significant amount since Yesterday, The same with those within ICU.

@Youarefakenews

I assume you are referring to the 123 less in hospital in the UK in today's figures? 19,735 vs yesterday's 19,858? Firstly, I wouldn't say that 123 in nearly 20,000 is a "significant amount". Secondly, there were 398 deaths.

Now, I understand the 398 figure is the deaths registered, rather than deaths occurred, but in the absence of true figures, lets use it as example.

You have multiple possible scenarios, including...

A) There are now fewer people in hospital today than there were yesterday. If the 398 people who died 'today' were in hospital yesterday, that means 275 people (398 - 123) were admitted to hospital today, or

B) 123 people were discharged from hospital today, 398 people died from Covid at home, or

Doesn't look like a big drop in hospital numbers to me

I think you should change your misleading thread title.

[quote theemperorhasnoclothes]What is your data source for 'the numbers in hospital have dropped a significant amount since yesterday' - can you show the data equivalent to the graph Prof Pagel showed?

I don't really think avoiding death of children is an adequate achievement though really - what is this, the middle ages? I'm interested in preventing avoidable disease and disability e.g. from PIMS and long covid (as well as the disruption these cause to education etc), not just death.

There have certainly been avoidable child deaths in this country though. You only have to look at the comparable figures of child deaths between 2020 (more mitigations in schools and elsewhere) and 2021 (fewer mitigations) to see that deaths and hospitalisations in children were higher when there were fewer protective measures in schools and elsewhere (e.g. no isolation of close or family contacts, no bubbles etc).

Here's the data for that statement... "Over 2,000 6-17 year olds have been admitted to hospital with covid-19 since 1 September and 10 5-14 year olds have died with covid as contributing cause, compared to 720 and two respectively over the same period in 2020.
www.bmj.com/content/375/bmj.n3149[/quote]
As harsh as it may sound, Ten deaths really isn't a lot in four months, especially where as you correctly say, Covid was only a contributing factor. To truly say it is above average, you would need to compare to deaths in the same age group from Cold/flu like illnesses from previous Years that did not include 2020 & 2021.

I strongly suspect that being isolated for so long had a negative effect on Children's immunity to all viruses. So when they did all start going about together, they struggled with the usual bugs far more than normal.

We have also been left with a mental health epidemic that will dwarf the numbers of children negatively affected with the Virus.

You are of course entirely welcome to do what you feel is correct for you and your family. I'm confident vaccines will continue to be available for those that wish them. But telling the world we cannot ask for more investigation into the benefits is both unreasonable and selfish.

I don't know why you're 'confident' vaccines will be available. They're not. Not even for CEV or CV kids at the moment, even when they've been approved, CEV kids can't get them. Whole threads on this.

I want both my 5-11 year old children vaccinated and I can't get them a vaccine.

And there's loads of studies into benefits. Why would you think there aren't? I'm totally for continuous analysis of data. Who wouldn't be?

That's WHY I'm saying we need to look at the effect of Omicron on children. It's not just about individual health. The child population is entirely unvaccinated up to 12. A tiny fraction of a massive number is still massive. What's our paediatric hospital capacity? Could it be overwhelmed? It's not just the covid hospitalisations, it's the knock on effect. What about long covid and PIMS (which I believe is typically 4-6 weeks post covid infection)?

@Youarefakenews

Can you explain your comment about a "significant" drop in hospital inpatients since yesterday?

Part of the mental health epidemic of course is an increase in children having to deal with new, long term health problems, pain, ‘scary’ hospital appointments (blood tests, ecgs and scans can be scary when you’re a child/teen). For some children it’s also having to deal with becoming a young carer to parents left in ill health from covid, and from loss in the family a greater scale than has previously been experienced. There’s also the stress of not being believed by doctors (nicely exacerbated by attitudes like some on this thread) and having to deal with pain and bad health for longer due to the lack of knowledge and lack of understanding of their condition. That kind of mental health problem matters too.

It would be interesting to see if there are comparative figures showing that similar numbers of children were left with long term post viral complications from flu/rsv/other respiratory/viral illness prior to 2020. Not feeling tired for a few weeks, but the organ damage, neurological damage etc that covid leaves. I’m well aware of course that many viruses do this, and some are left with hearing loss, heart damage etc from viruses so I’ll be clear that I’m asking about the numbers, and how they compare with covid.

Well said @BewareTheLibrarians

I strongly suspect

Well, that's not really sturdy evidence is it?

@Piggywaspushed

I strongly suspect

Well, that's not really sturdy evidence is it?

Its a combination of ideology and bias.

You would show her hard facts showing X is true and she would still keep stating her "truth".

It's like screaming into a hurricane. The critical mass of people who think the way she does has grown too large.

Data points to increased morbidity amongst children with Omicron. Problem is this type of problem will only really manifest itself over the next 5 - 10 years as impacted children grow up.

Actuary here, and the trends right now are pointing that way, which is very worrisome because we now have to contend with an ageing society plus more children with morbidities. The costs (human and financial) are immense.

@BewareTheLibrarians

Part of the mental health epidemic of course is an increase in children having to deal with new, long term health problems, pain, ‘scary’ hospital appointments (blood tests, ecgs and scans can be scary when you’re a child/teen). For some children it’s also having to deal with becoming a young carer to parents left in ill health from covid, and from loss in the family a greater scale than has previously been experienced. There’s also the stress of not being believed by doctors (nicely exacerbated by attitudes like some on this thread) and having to deal with pain and bad health for longer due to the lack of knowledge and lack of understanding of their condition. That kind of mental health problem matters too.

It would be interesting to see if there are comparative figures showing that similar numbers of children were left with long term post viral complications from flu/rsv/other respiratory/viral illness prior to 2020. Not feeling tired for a few weeks, but the organ damage, neurological damage etc that covid leaves. I’m well aware of course that many viruses do this, and some are left with hearing loss, heart damage etc from viruses so I’ll be clear that I’m asking about the numbers, and how they compare with covid.

Yes, there already is a name for all you describe above PANS/PANDAS and unfortunately there are thousands and thousands of children (in this country alone) who have P/P as a result of a previous illness, infection, mold exposure, after a stressful life event, due to an allergy, stressful birth etc, etc, the list goes on. Long covid is not at all a new thing!!! I belong in a facebook group of all these parents, who have been saying right for the past two years how now that long covid is getting so much attention, hopefully, the medical profession will make the connection and P/P will also be more recognised and treatment offered on the NHS to all these genuinely struggling families all over the UK. Thus far, the treatment options on the NHS are very limited, the number of NHS docs acknowledging/recognising and treating P/P are far and few between as the profession, in general, often denies the existence of PANS/PANDAS with doctors being "silenced" by the establishment. It's a brutal world out there.

I'd like to hope the same about ME: much minimised and even derided. I hope LC has drawn attention to post viral conditions. Not confident though.

Yep @murcimari it’s been shocking the way that ME, CFS and PANDAS and similar have been dealt with by the medical community. Like piggy I really hope it leads to more awareness and understanding of potential treatments, but to see the way that long covid is minimised even by the government is slightly depressing. To say the least.